[EscoLehGo]

You tin foil hat guys never have solutions, just paranoia and fear. So the CIA is dismantled then what? So the government is dismantled, then what? Where are the solutions with you weirdos? And don't you dare go looking at that crack pipe for answers.

[sivispacem]

What I find most concerning about things like the Zeitgeist documentaries is that they don't actually seem to understand how the things they violently oppose work. It stands to reason that there's a great deal of secrecy surrounding the operations of the CIA because they're and intelligence agency- there's nothing conspiratorial about that. But the biggest issue is that these theories seem to be applied to an image of the US intelligence services (in particular) which is based not on reality, defined legal boundaries or history, but on myth, fiction and Hollywood blockbusters. The fact of the matter is- and there are many intelligence specialists in the US system who will wholeheartedly agree with me here- that the US intelligence system is fundamentally and technically flawed due to the rigid power boundaries which are enforced on it, and a history of hostility between domestic and international, between signals and human intelligence. Part of this is down to the partisan nature of US politics, part down to historic rivalry between agencies and competition for funding, and part down to the overarching concept in the United States that no one organisation of any kind should hold a monopoly on anything. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually work very well in reality. The history of the CIA is peppered with communication and analytical failures, poor judgements and examples of operational groups being outmanoeuvred (in more ways than one) by the corrupt intelligence apparatus of nations so poor their entire GDP is so small that it looks like a rounding error in the congressional hat budget. The most notable example of organisational ineptitude is, of course, 9/11, but there are many others- Operation Igloo White in Vietnam, conducted in collaboration with USAF intelligence; the strategic failure of Operational Barrel Roll in Vietnam, the failure to detect repeated penetration of the higher echelons of the CIA by Communist moles during the mid-Cold War period, the failure to protect US military secrets related to the US nuclear programme, which enabled the Soviet Union to design and build a thermonuclear weapon within a year of the US first testing theirs.

Put simply, the Zeitgeist documentaries are factually incorrect. The problem is that most of their viewers take them as canon and don't explore the issues around them in more detail. That's why academics and subject matter experts dismiss them as childish nonsense. I implore you, read some of the books dedicated to intelligence history, and you'll realise that many of the various operations in both peace and war the CIA was (and is) involved in are a) relatively benign, b) often quite unsuccessful and c) not in any way an infringement of their legal duties and responsibilities. Now, if you want something to be really paranoid, how about the British intelligence services? They were only acknowledged to exist in the early 1990s, have no public mandate and operate largely independently of political oversight unless embroiled in some kind of public accountability investigation. Then again, none of them have direct covert action capability like the CIA do, so it's not as if they're flying out to third-world nations and bumping off dictators.

[Chunk]

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Aug 30 2012, 08:24)

What I find most concerning about things like the Zeitgeist documentaries is that they don't actually seem to understand how the things they violently oppose work. It stands to reason that there's a great deal of secrecy surrounding the operations of the CIA because they're and intelligence agency- there's nothing conspiratorial about that. But the biggest issue is that these theories seem to be applied to an image of the US intelligence services (in particular) which is based not on reality, defined legal boundaries or history, but on myth, fiction and Hollywood blockbusters. The fact of the matter is- and there are many intelligence specialists in the US system who will wholeheartedly agree with me here- that the US intelligence system is fundamentally and technically flawed due to the rigid power boundaries which are enforced on it, and a history of hostility between domestic and international, between signals and human intelligence. Part of this is down to the partisan nature of US politics, part down to historic rivalry between agencies and competition for funding, and part down to the overarching concept in the United States that no one organisation of any kind should hold a monopoly on anything. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually work very well in reality. The history of the CIA is peppered with communication and analytical failures, poor judgements and examples of operational groups being outmanoeuvred (in more ways than one) by the corrupt intelligence apparatus of nations so poor their entire GDP is so small that it looks like a rounding error in the congressional hat budget. The most notable example of organisational ineptitude is, of course, 9/11, but there are many others- Operation Igloo White in Vietnam, conducted in collaboration with USAF intelligence; the strategic failure of Operational Barrel Roll in Vietnam, the failure to detect repeated penetration of the higher echelons of the CIA by Communist moles during the mid-Cold War period, the failure to protect US military secrets related to the US nuclear programme, which enabled the Soviet Union to design and build a thermonuclear weapon within a year of the US first testing theirs. Put simply, the Zeitgeist documentaries are factually incorrect. The problem is that most of their viewers take them as canon and don't explore the issues around them in more detail. That's why academics and subject matter experts dismiss them as childish nonsense. I implore you, read some of the books dedicated to intelligence history, and you'll realise that many of the various operations in both peace and war the CIA was (and is) involved in are a) relatively benign, b) often quite unsuccessful and c) not in any way an infringement of their legal duties and responsibilities. Now, if you want something to be really paranoid, how about the British intelligence services? They were only acknowledged to exist in the early 1990s, have no public mandate and operate largely independently of political oversight unless embroiled in some kind of public accountability investigation. Then again, none of them have direct covert action capability like the CIA do, so it's not as if they're flying out to third-world nations and bumping off dictators.

You're way too smart for a forum like this, mate.

[Johnny_Cash1983]

FBI should be removed they Deleted Mega Upload.
The bastards.

[Sanjeem]

QUOTE (Chunk @ Thursday, Aug 30 2012, 09:42)

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Aug 30 2012, 08:24) What I find most concerning about things like the Zeitgeist documentaries is that they don't actually seem to understand how the things they violently oppose work. It stands to reason that there's a great deal of secrecy surrounding the operations of the CIA because they're and intelligence agency- there's nothing conspiratorial about that. But the biggest issue is that these theories seem to be applied to an image of the US intelligence services (in particular) which is based not on reality, defined legal boundaries or history, but on myth, fiction and Hollywood blockbusters. The fact of the matter is- and there are many intelligence specialists in the US system who will wholeheartedly agree with me here- that the US intelligence system is fundamentally and technically flawed due to the rigid power boundaries which are enforced on it, and a history of hostility between domestic and international, between signals and human intelligence. Part of this is down to the partisan nature of US politics, part down to historic rivalry between agencies and competition for funding, and part down to the overarching concept in the United States that no one organisation of any kind should hold a monopoly on anything. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually work very well in reality. The history of the CIA is peppered with communication and analytical failures, poor judgements and examples of operational groups being outmanoeuvred (in more ways than one) by the corrupt intelligence apparatus of nations so poor their entire GDP is so small that it looks like a rounding error in the congressional hat budget. The most notable example of organisational ineptitude is, of course, 9/11, but there are many others- Operation Igloo White in Vietnam, conducted in collaboration with USAF intelligence; the strategic failure of Operational Barrel Roll in Vietnam, the failure to detect repeated penetration of the higher echelons of the CIA by Communist moles during the mid-Cold War period, the failure to protect US military secrets related to the US nuclear programme, which enabled the Soviet Union to design and build a thermonuclear weapon within a year of the US first testing theirs. Put simply, the Zeitgeist documentaries are factually incorrect. The problem is that most of their viewers take them as canon and don't explore the issues around them in more detail. That's why academics and subject matter experts dismiss them as childish nonsense. I implore you, read some of the books dedicated to intelligence history, and you'll realise that many of the various operations in both peace and war the CIA was (and is) involved in are a) relatively benign, b) often quite unsuccessful and c) not in any way an infringement of their legal duties and responsibilities. Now, if you want something to be really paranoid, how about the British intelligence services? They were only acknowledged to exist in the early 1990s, have no public mandate and operate largely independently of political oversight unless embroiled in some kind of public accountability investigation. Then again, none of them have direct covert action capability like the CIA do, so it's not as if they're flying out to third-world nations and bumping off dictators. You're way too smart for a forum like this, mate.

Agreed, You're like a f*cking information database on almost every subject. You deserve true admiration.

[Greenline]

QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Thursday, Aug 30 2012, 18:05)

FBI should be removed they Deleted Mega Upload. The bastards.

Wow, you truly are in an oppressed nation. No other country has to go through what you guys go through, you have my full support.
-----------

The thing about some Americans and some Europeans (well, extremely ignorant ones), is that they don't have problems. They don't know what oppression, corruption and dictatorships are, nor have most of them experienced one. Now, here's the thing, they try to use the unused brain capacity that's supposed to go into suffering etc., and then conspiracies are born. Just like OCD and other anxiety disorders are caused; by a person with a high IQ not using his brain to the max. Now, conspiracies are similar. Just instead of a high IQ, you have a spoiled people, living in a country with a completely functional system, trying to use that part of the brain that normally goes into dealing with oppression and dictatorships (problem solving), and just creating problems for yourself, so in the end that unused capacity is used trying to fight against imaginary corruption and oppression by the evil leaders etc. Atleast, that's my theory, and I think it's not so far from the truth.

Don't be so spoiled, people.

[Johnny_Cash1983]

QUOTE (Greenline @ Thursday, Aug 30 2012, 14:00)

QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Thursday, Aug 30 2012, 18:05) FBI should be removed they Deleted Mega Upload. The bastards. Wow, you truly are in an oppressed nation. No other country has to go through what you guys go through, you have my full support. ----------- The thing about some Americans and some Europeans (well, extremely ignorant ones), is that they don't have problems. They don't know what oppression, corruption and dictatorships are, nor have most of them experienced one. Now, here's the thing, they try to use the unused brain capacity that's supposed to go into suffering etc., and then conspiracies are born. Just like OCD and other anxiety disorders are caused; by a person with a high IQ not using his brain to the max. Now, conspiracies are similar. Just instead of a high IQ, you have a spoiled people, living in a country with a completely functional system, trying to use that part of the brain that normally goes into dealing with oppression and dictatorships (problem solving), and just creating problems for yourself, so in the end that unused capacity is used trying to fight against imaginary corruption and oppression by the evil leaders etc. Atleast, that's my theory, and I think it's not so far from the truth. Don't be so spoiled, people.

What are you trying to say?

[Greenline]

QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 00:51)

What are you trying to say?

I guessed you were from America and pointed out all the problems your 'corrupt' 'dictatorship' puts you through.

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (Callum @ Wednesday, Aug 29 2012, 17:12)

So, I've been watching the Zeitgeist series

you can stop right there.

most of what you have to say is conspiracy theory nonsense.

[ghost of delete key]

QUOTE (Callum @ Wednesday, Aug 29 2012, 20:12)

So, I've been watching the Zeitgeist series, and well, it's a major eye-opener!

Do your own thinking, but for the love of mustard, THINK.

QUOTE

Before watching it I always loved the American system,

...back when you still had rational thought...

QUOTE

it seems that the people at the top are majorly corrupt,

herp derp, welcome to the Human Race. Remember to apply this measure to those Zeitgeist freaks you latched onto, when they've got you hypnotized into giving up all your goodies to the Collective. Just sayin'...

QUOTE (funny as hell)

I have setup a petition (click here) on the website of The White House, petitioning that the CIA should be either abolished (and replaced with something new) or reformed and ensure that everything is ran through The President of the United States.

OMG ur SRS?!?!

QUOTE

Some of you may think I'm crazy and stupid, but meh, if you would, please sign the petition. It needs at least 150 votes to be publicly visible.

I say we bump this vote to visible just for the public embarrassment



Oh, wait- this was a troll?

This post has been edited by ghost of delete key on Friday, Aug 31 2012, 16:16

[Tyler]

There is a question being left unsaid here that seriously needs a voice at this point.

[Greenline]

QUOTE (Tyler @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 01:42)

There is a question being left unsaid here that seriously needs a voice at this point.

What about Anal?

[Johnny_Cash1983]

QUOTE (Greenline @ Thursday, Aug 30 2012, 20:55)

QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 00:51) What are you trying to say? I guessed you were from America and pointed out all the problems your 'corrupt' 'dictatorship' puts you through.

I'm not from USA.
But f*ck FBI why the f*ck did they remove it if it where not from USA.
It had many good downloads.

[lil weasel]

QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 15:28)

I'm not from USA. But [why] the FBI [...] remove it if it where not from USA. It had many good [FREE] downloads.

Because it was cutting into the U.S. Tax Base. Pirates make us pay more taxes.

[ghost of delete key]

QUOTE (lil weasel @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 11:39)

QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 15:28) I'm not from USA. But [why] the FBI [...] remove it if it where not from USA. It had many good [FREE] downloads. Because it was cutting into the U.S. Tax Base. Pirates make us pay more taxes.

Wrong.
Barack Obama and Ben Bernanke make us pay more taxes.
Pirates steal from the production of the private sector...




just like Barack Obama and Ben Bernanke.


[insert serious face here]

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (ghost of delete key @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 17:22)

Pirates steal from the production of the private sector...

I know (or at least hope) your taking the piss, but that's essentially akin to stealing taxes. If the business sector's financial returns mean that they're a drop in tax revenue compared to expected takings. Short of cutting fiscal spending, which as most economists will tell you in a time of relative economic uncertainty is generally a great way of promoting negative growth, all you can do is either borrow or increase personal taxes. Or, more usually, a combination.

[Johnny_Cash1983]

QUOTE (lil weasel @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 15:39)

QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 15:28) I'm not from USA. But [why] the FBI [...] remove it if it where not from USA. It had many good [FREE] downloads. Because it was cutting into the U.S. Tax Base. Pirates make us pay more taxes.

No it have GTA3 BETA mod by alex and more.

[Original Light]

@OP:

You've got two signatures so far.

I don't think you're going to make it...

Even if you did, there's not much of a chance they'll change it just because of a petition. If you had two million signatures, then it would be more likely. But even then, I don't think so.

[Tchuck]

QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 10:50)

QUOTE (lil weasel @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 15:39) QUOTE (Johnny_Cash1983 @ Friday, Aug 31 2012, 15:28) I'm not from USA. But [why] the FBI [...] remove it if it where not from USA. It had many good [FREE] downloads. Because it was cutting into the U.S. Tax Base. Pirates make us pay more taxes. No it have GTA3 BETA mod by alex and more.

As well as several thousand files that were infringing copyright laws. Can you not understand that?

On topic, this is a stupid idea. Petitioning to end the CIA just because you saw one video created by a the Zeitgeist group is seriously sad. When I was in Sweden I went to a talk about the Project Venus, the other arm of the Zeitgeist group. It was just sad to see them promoting something so hopeless so fervently.

[Tyler]

The sad fact about the zeitgeist movement is that there is no true goal to what these anti-American hufflepuffs are doing. I'll be the first to admit we've all made mistakes - democrats and republicans. But creating some society of leeches who simply suck blood from their neighbor for sustenance is not the key to a dream society. In Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, this point is made abundantly clear. I recommend you all read it some time.