[Chorup]

QUOTE (DeeperRed @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 12:42)

QUOTE (Chorup @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 11:54) QUOTE (DeeperRed @ Wednesday, Jul 25 2012, 18:43) QUOTE (Flesh-n-Bone @ Wednesday, Jul 25 2012, 18:25) QUOTE (sivispacem @ Wednesday, Jul 25 2012, 17:53) The paradox is if you believe that the universe was created out of nothing, there is nothing to create the creator. Saying that god is "special" and therefore does not have to abide by the rules that experience has demonstrated- and, if you believe in him/it, the rules he created- is entirely illogical. This isn't an attack on faith, I just find this quite hard to justify- you cannot have a creator without it having been created. To be frank, I don't care. Just having faith motivates me and makes me feel good. I don't understand why everyone has to make it into a lengthy debate that never ever goes anywhere. And I really have no interest in debating why I choose to believe something personal like that. It's only digging yourself into a hole that leaves you confused with no way out of it. To me, it's that simple. I believe God exists and instead of wasting my time "searching" for him/it's existence on display, I'll just enjoy life and if the answer is "yes", I'll find out when I'm dead. And if it's a "no", then I die without having wasted valuable minutes of the short life debating over God's existence. I admit, I used to be into this topic and argued about it a lot, but then I realized it's a waste of everyone's time and results in absolutely nothing other than wasted time. You have to understand though that from are point of you it seems very illogical if you can't back up your own belief. I am not going to lie it just seems ignorant to me. Flesh-n-Bone was spot on. Why should he be criticised and ridiculed for utilising his faith for positive purposes? He doesn't need to prove anything to anybody. If believing in God provides a degree of positive reinforcement and hope, that is reason enough to maintain that belief. That is why it is called a belief, it is a voluntary decision that should be respected by others. Similarly, atheists should be respected for their decision equally. It is when people try to push their own religious beliefs or lack-of onto others that it becomes unacceptable and a violation of that individual's freedom of choice. Once again, if it provides a helpful hand in times of hardship and need...why not? I am not ridiculing or criticizing his faith at all. I am asking for "why", he does not have to prove anything to anyone but it was his choice to come and discuss here so its very naive to think he won't be questioned. He also avoids answering the questions, such as the one by Sivispacem. He just answers "To be frank, I don't care" and that's pretty pathetic to be honest. This is a forum, you come here to discuss. If you can't answer his question and back up his belief what the point in having it ? If it helps in hard times, then great but again don't bother join into a discussion only to run away when there's questions you don't have answers to.

So he isn't permitted to put forward his OWN opinion in a topic that invites believers and non-believers to participate? He even explored the alternative and stated that people should not force their beliefs upon others (as I did). What is wrong with that? Fine, go ahead and ask him questions...but don't be so quick to jump the gun and label others ignorant before you look at yourself.

I'm happy to engage in a discussion with you, not on the existence or non-existence of God but in regards to the cultural point I made in my previous point. Answer my questions in relation to that, or you are simply 'running away from a question you have no answer to.'

[Barguast]

QUOTE (Rugsarecozy @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 13:12)

I don't believe in religion, and never will. But I still do believe that once you've died, you will come back as another human or animal. Except you just don't realise your back, or that you've died before and so on. So it's like you back to a baby again and don't realise it?

Then that isn't really 'you', is it?

[_____]

QUOTE (Chorup @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 15:54)

So he isn't permitted to put forward his OWN opinion in a topic that invites believers and non-believers to participate? He even explored the alternative and stated that people should not force their beliefs upon others (as I did). What is wrong with that? Fine, go ahead and ask him questions...but don't be so quick to jump the gun and label others ignorant before you look at yourself.

It's a debate topic, what exactly is your point?

Rational\critical thinking isn't a belief.

[rare.steak]

Didn't GTAForums use to have a Current Affairs/Debates section?

[_____]

Last time I checked, pretty much the whole forum was a debate section.

[DeeperRed]

@Chorp (Not quoting as it don't want to start a quote train)

He can put forward his opinion, thats fine. But this a forum, a place of discussion and if something is put forward expect it to be discussed. He didn't discuss, just said "To be frank I don't care" when Sivis made point and asked him a question. This shows that he had no answer to defend his own beliefs. I ask the question then why do you believe it if you can't defend it ? Like I said, if you don't want to be questioned on your beliefs then don't post them in a forum, a place of discussion. I am not being ignorant at all, I will look at all perspective, however he didn't offer me one with any validation. Do you even know what ignorant means ?

I didn't answer you question because its not very clear and I think you misread me. I am not saying its ignorant to be religious, I am saying its ignorant to run away from questions about your belief when you can't answer them. It shows a big flaw in a belief if you can't back it up with your own reasoning.

Yes of course the culture exists and there is nothing wrong with being apart of it however If you don't believe in it then why be apart of it ? If its to be close with your family then so be it. I never said it was ignorant to be involved in the rituals however I am saying doing it for the sake of doing it just seems very illogical. If its because you want to be a part of a a community or to be a part of your country then thats logical and make sense. So read my posts again, please point out whats ignorant. I am just saying its ignorant to avoid question your own belief.

As an atheist I can tell you why I don't believe in a god or religion, I can back up and justify it all. My main reason is because its clear by looking through history how religion has always been there as a form of control and it relies way to much on "faith" then empirical evidence. If I wasn't working I would write more but there the two reasons why I am atheist. If you want to question them, by all means do so I will be happy to discuss them.

This post has been edited by DeeperRed on Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 17:59

[zoo3891]

Didn't we have this topic last month?


I try to be neutral about religion (and mostly succeed), I'm an agnostic who believes that as long as you believe in your god(s), the afterlife, etc. confidently you'll die a happy person, and as long as you were honest with yourself, and stuck to your beliefs you should be fine with whatever happens. Personally I don't believe in any type of afterlife, or a spirit for that matter, but it'd be cool if heaven was real and sinners got stuck here on earth in spirit form, I'd love to be a ghost.

QUOTE

Didn't GTAForums use to have a Current Affairs/Debates section?

I wonder where you might check for such a thing?

QUOTE

Last time I checked, pretty much the whole forum was a debate section.

A lot of us don't like to be disagreed with, personally my opinions are not up for debate ever and if anyone ever tells me I'm wrong or disagrees with me I'll go cry and then I'll find you and punch you, after that I'll write a sentence or two about how I disagree and don't care about what you think anyway.

This post has been edited by zoo3891 on Friday, Jul 27 2012, 01:08

[Nick Foster]

QUOTE (Barguast @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 02:38)

QUOTE (Nick Foster @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 10:12) Sorry, I didn't make myself totally clear. The only ghost experiences I've personally had, were inanimate objects moving and such. Care to elaborate further? What moved? How far? Was this a first-hand experience? I don't believe in ghosts (it even sounds silly having to declare that), but even those who do shouldn't necessarily attribute them to proof of an afterlife.

A toy that my dog was playing with moved about 10 feet down the hall. My Dad threw the toy from the bed and it landed in the hallway where he could still see it. About 15 minutes later, after nobody had moved or gotten up out of bed, the toy was 10 feet down the hall. The dog was next to my parents the whole time. And no, it was not a ball.

In the 1970s, my father lived in an apartment in Los Angeles that was notorious for weird happenings. One time, his keys vanished, and he searched on his hands and knees for days, and he even vaccumed the apartment. Two days after he had given up, he walked in, and the keys were sitting right at his feet. This was just one of many incidents that happened in that room. I'm not saying these are all totally true and provide proof of an afterlife, but it's hard to ignore.

The thing is, with all this paranormal stuff happening, and if ghosts are real, is it just our spirits that we cannot control, or is it our intelligent form in another world? That's the thing that gets me.

[Adept]

QUOTE (Nick Foster @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 19:46)

The thing is, with all this paranormal stuff happening, and if ghosts are real, is it just our spirits that we cannot control, or is it our intelligent form in another world? That's the thing that gets me.

That's a good question. Some say its multidimensional entities and others say it is projections of some part of us that we are unconscious of. I don't know.


I have a question(s) and I would like to read others thoughts on this. Which came first, objective reality or subjective experience. If it is objective reality, which is widely believed to be unconscious and has no intelligence(the ability to reason, contemplate and understand), then how could it create sentient beings(man for instance) who is conscious and intelligent? In other words, how can nothing create something?

[Flesh-n-Bone]

QUOTE (DeeperRed @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 14:56)

He can put forward his opinion, thats fine. But this a forum, a place of discussion and if something is put forward expect it to be discussed. He didn't discuss, just said "To be frank I don't care" when Sivis made point and asked him a question. This shows that he had no answer to defend his own beliefs. I ask the question then why do you believe it if you can't defend it ? Like I said, if you don't want to be questioned on your beliefs then don't post them in a forum, a place of discussion. I am not being ignorant at all, I will look at all perspective, however he didn't offer me one with any validation. Do you even know what ignorant means ?

Just to wrap this up instead of looking like a fool that ran away, I did explain my reasons for believing in God and an afterlife. Somebody thought it didn't make sense (or whatever 'paradox' means) and I felt like it was just a case of trying to start a pointless debate, which in the case of religion/faith always goes straight to hell (at least from what I've seen 99.9% of the time) so I didn't feel like debating it. Although I understand I came to the wrong place if I didn't expect some questioning regarding my opinion.

And another thing, I don't think I need to get a real "reason" if having faith makes me feel better about life. You don't have to be "exposed to the truth" if living under a "lie" doesn't hurt you in any way. (assuming this is where the whole 'reason' thing is going) Just like an adopted child being better off not knowing about his/her past. I feel great under the belief that God and an afterlife exist and unless there's undisputed proof that proves/disproves such a thing (which there isn't at the moment), I don't see the need to get deep into it.

[NateShaw92]

QUOTE (Nick Foster @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 09:12)

Sorry, I didn't make myself totally clear. The only ghost experiences I've personally had, were inanimate objects moving and such.

Same here. Multiple times actually, surprised you were not flamed like me not going into that, got flame-grilled like a burger on a barbeque last time.

f*ck it:

Already mentioned the toy car moving in a circle - nobody pushing it, the countertop it was on was straight, anyway even if wonky that would not explain a circular movement, and same goes for any wind or draft in the room, not enough to move it, even if there was would it move circular?

Example number 2 - a real car in Menorca rolled down a hill, now my thinking was, the handbrake went, like a car on our hill that rolled down, ploughed a fence and rolled down a hill to be stopped by a tree just before it would have hit some terraced houses (lucky), but the car turned 90 degrees to the right, rolled about 100-150 feet, then turned 90 degrees to the LEFT and stopped just short of parking in an empty parking space, an emppty parking space surrounded by 2 taken ones.
Looked inside, no driver, and this was like 1999, yes robot cars were up and running then but I doubt there would be one near a Menorca pizzeria, possibly cruise control but I don't know if it works like that or works when the key is out of the ignition

Maybe it is just a thing with my family and cars.

Also stuff disappears back home, not in my flat near uni, just in my old house, I admit I am forgetful and disorganised but not my parents, and when they KNOW, and I mean KNOW where something is and it is not there, it's gone, 98% of the time it is me picking sh*t up and moving it as I have a habit of doing but that 2% things just vanish then pop up like a week after you want it. This is a common phenomenon and basicly shows that "the best way to find something is to stop looking." But sometimes, on odd occasion, usually with a TV remote or something light and small, I put it on my lap or chest (usually chest) when laying back in a chair or a bed with the pillows against the headboard, and about a minute later, it is not there, it has not fallen off I check around me thoroughly, then I stand up and it seems like the object just falls out of the sky, on odd occasion I have noticed it go past my face on the way down so I know it has not fallen from my chest or lap. f*cking weird.

Maybe ghosts, maybe a glitch in the Matrix. yes that is a (poor) joke, for you idiots foolish enough to take that 2nd part seriously Who knows? nobody

As an atheist I would say there is no god, no heaven, no hell yadda yadda but given my observations there is something we can't quite explain, these occurences as well as yours are caused by these things, maybe it is ghosts as you said (in a future post), or beings from 'another world' in any possible context of 'another world' maybe they are hallucinations caused by brain-farts, nobody can know for certain, believe me I am logical and sometimes described as hyper-rational and I have basicly thought "What the f*ck did I just see? that can't be real, nah, that just defies logic." But I saw them, others saw them they happened. One lesson I have learnt is to trust your senses, trust your instincts, trust what your brain is telling you via these senses, and do not always trust the analytical aftermath, msot times that is helpful but times like this, it contradicts the former.

This post has been edited by NateShaw92 on Friday, Jul 27 2012, 06:32

[Tyler]

QUOTE (Barguast @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 06:58)

QUOTE (Rugsarecozy @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 13:12) I don't believe in religion, and never will. But I still do believe that once you've died, you will come back as another human or animal. Except you just don't realise your back, or that you've died before and so on. So it's like you back to a baby again and don't realise it? Then that isn't really 'you', is it?

Quit questioning my deeply held, unanswerable beliefs you totalitarian atheist satanist liberal hippie devil-worshipping authoritarian gun-banning homosexual marxist leninst socialist meanie.

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Flesh-n-Bone @ Friday, Jul 27 2012, 06:15)

Somebody thought it didn't make sense (or whatever 'paradox' means) and I felt like it was just a case of trying to start a pointless debate, which in the case of religion/faith always goes straight to hell

A paradox is a group of statements which if held to be true causes a contradiction or logical fallacy. It wasn't an attack on your faith or an attempt to start an argument of any kind- like all questions of this nature, discussion of the belief can mitigate the paradox. We encourage people to question their beliefs and understandings in every other facet of life in order to develop themselves and demonstrate knowledge of a subject- I have no intention to attack the faith of others but I also believe that no debate is pointless. No-one is trying to force you into forsaking your beliefs- all I'm trying to do is see what you have to say about some of the fundamental questions which are asked of believers.

[Barguast]

QUOTE (NateShaw92 @ Friday, Jul 27 2012, 06:48)

One lesson I have learnt is to trust your senses, trust your instincts, trust what your brain is telling you via these senses

That's probably where you're going wrong. The brain jumps to conclusions and in circumstances like this, is often wrong.

I remember one time, I was lying in bed - in the dark - going to sleep. I became aware of a third 'breathing' noise. It wasn't me, it wasn't the missus. I could distinguish those and knew this was something else. All I 'knew' was this 'breathing' noise was in the room. I knew it was, because it was so close. Being the brave, heroic character I am I got up to investigate. Eventually I found the source. It wasn't in the room, it was outside. It was breathing, it was a car alarm. A car alarm! Lying back down in bed again, same position as before, I listened to it again. Now it sounded like a car alarm. A distant car alarm.

So what happened? I think you'll agree that the two are quite distinct sounds. My brain obviously jumped a conclusion due to my impaired senses, and stuck with it. It prematurely decided it was a breathing noise (a potential danger) and wouldn't budge from that until I'd investigated further. It could not be relied upon, it could not be trusted.

[NateShaw92]

QUOTE (Barguast @ Friday, Jul 27 2012, 16:20)

QUOTE (NateShaw92 @ Friday, Jul 27 2012, 06:48) One lesson I have learnt is to trust your senses, trust your instincts, trust what your brain is telling you via these senses That's probably where you're going wrong. The brain jumps to conclusions and in circumstances like this, is often wrong. I remember one time, I was lying in bed - in the dark - going to sleep. I became aware of a third 'breathing' noise. It wasn't me, it wasn't the missus. I could distinguish those and knew this was something else. All I 'knew' was this 'breathing' noise was in the room. I knew it was, because it was so close. Being the brave, heroic character I am I got up to investigate. Eventually I found the source. It wasn't in the room, it was outside. It was breathing, it was a car alarm. A car alarm! Lying back down in bed again, same position as before, I listened to it again. Now it sounded like a car alarm. A distant car alarm. So what happened? I think you'll agree that the two are quite distinct sounds. My brain obviously jumped a conclusion due to my impaired senses, and stuck with it. It prematurely decided it was a breathing noise (a potential danger) and wouldn't budge from that until I'd investigated further. It could not be relied upon, it could not be trusted.

Don't think it explains hallucinations not caused by drugs, don't think it would make you see a full sized car turn right, then left, park in a space with no driver and it was not a robot car.

What you explained is a normal brain phenomenon, proves or disproves nothing. I have had this a lot, particularly when watching TV shows, like for instance 24 season 1, I did not know at first that Nina Myers was the traitor until it was obvious, although I suspected, but when I watched it a second time I saw the indicators, like her conveineintly not being hat the house when it got attacked by Jovan and mishko, and felt a bit stupid I did not notice them before, but I was only like 9
In the same way if you read a murder mystery novel where there is a serial killer, you don't know who the killer is, until a point, you read it a 2nd time and then you know the answer already, so you notice the subtle indicators that happened earlier.
The brain somehow can fill in the blanks when the answer is known, fill in the why and how by seeing these indicators a lot easier than if you don't have the solution.

Plus I don't jump to conclusions, when I hear something I don't think "oh that is this and that" I think "what is that? it sound like it could be... maybe I should go check it out"
so the jumping to conclusion thing is irrelevant to me personally, but thanks for the input.

I should add that I said senses, as in plural, if I think I hear something I go to check it out to get a second opinion (from mr sight). As you did, I agree there, should not trust a judgement based one 1 sense.

This post has been edited by NateShaw92 on Friday, Jul 27 2012, 16:48

[Barguast]

QUOTE (NateShaw92 @ Friday, Jul 27 2012, 17:45)

don't think it would make you see a full sized car turn right, then left, park in a space with no driver and it was not a robot car.

Even unassisted, the wheels will try to follow the camber of the road, and angle of the wheels also be affected by the car's constantly changing direction and momentum. Have you ever seen a shopping trolley rolling on a hill, or what happens if you just give it a shove? You'll get a similar effect - it won't just roll forwards, it'll swerve left to right and all over the place seemingly randomly before it stops. It doesn't mean there is any intelligence behind it. It certainly doesn't mean paranormal forces are taking hold.

I can't help but wonder what you think all these dead dudes are up to, given your predilection to associating them with the afterlife? Is this ghost driver going somewhere, but forgotten how to drive or is he just inexperienced at influencing the corporeal world (get off my train!)? What are these sneaky poltergeists doing throwing your phone past your head when you go looking for it? Surely the non-paranormal explanations are a bit more plausible?

[NateShaw92]

QUOTE (Barguast @ Friday, Jul 27 2012, 17:08)

I can't help but wonder what you think all these dead dudes are up to, given your predilection to associating them with the afterlife? Is this ghost driver going somewhere, but forgotten how to drive or is he just inexperienced at influencing the corporeal world (get off my train!)? What are these sneaky poltergeists doing throwing your phone past your head when you go looking for it? Surely the non-paranormal explanations are a bit more plausible?

Didn't really follow the camber of the road, rolled down a sloped alley, turned one way rolled down the road, turned the other went into parking space, not carried on down the road.

Didn't give any real prediction or judgement to that effect. If you read my post properly you would know I was just merely giving examples of weird sh*t where stuff has moved (seemingly) inexplicably, I gave no real judgements as to the reason of said events, don't know why you think I did. I merely stated the odd occurences and gave a list of possible reasons, but that list is by no means exhaustive.
My basic reason for mentioning ghosts or other paranormal activity - this is an AFTERLIFE topic, that is not to say I believe that ghosts are behind these events, to tell the truth i honestly have no idea what caused these occurences to happen, that's why they are strange in my book (not literally in my book but you get the idea).

To be honest those are just the ones I feel comfortable posting without being seen as completely mental

I even posited a non-paranormal possible reason - the 'brain-fart' - basicly causing the seeing, hearing things that are not there (the reason I don't trust or make judgements based one 1 sense alone). But since I don't have anything wrong with my brain *touch wood* this seems unlikely to have happened on multiple occurences.

also the phone has never flown past my head, I said light things, I have a nokia

This post has been edited by NateShaw92 on Friday, Jul 27 2012, 17:39

[Chorup]

QUOTE (DeeperRed @ Thursday, Jul 26 2012, 13:56)

@Chorp (Not quoting as it don't want to start a quote train) He can put forward his opinion, thats fine. But this a forum, a place of discussion and if something is put forward expect it to be discussed. He didn't discuss, just said "To be frank I don't care" when Sivis made point and asked him a question. This shows that he had no answer to defend his own beliefs. I ask the question then why do you believe it if you can't defend it ? Like I said, if you don't want to be questioned on your beliefs then don't post them in a forum, a place of discussion. I am not being ignorant at all, I will look at all perspective, however he didn't offer me one with any validation. Do you even know what ignorant means ? I didn't answer you question because its not very clear and I think you misread me. I am not saying its ignorant to be religious, I am saying its ignorant to run away from questions about your belief when you can't answer them. It shows a big flaw in a belief if you can't back it up with your own reasoning. Yes of course the culture exists and there is nothing wrong with being apart of it however If you don't believe in it then why be apart of it ? If its to be close with your family then so be it. I never said it was ignorant to be involved in the rituals however I am saying doing it for the sake of doing it just seems very illogical. If its because you want to be a part of a a community or to be a part of your country then thats logical and make sense. So read my posts again, please point out whats ignorant. I am just saying its ignorant to avoid question your own belief. As an atheist I can tell you why I don't believe in a god or religion, I can back up and justify it all. My main reason is because its clear by looking through history how religion has always been there as a form of control and it relies way to much on "faith" then empirical evidence. If I wasn't working I would write more but there the two reasons why I am atheist. If you want to question them, by all means do so I will be happy to discuss them.

Well it was a question, and he gave his answer in response to that question. He looked at both sides of the argument in an effort to diffuse any conflict that may be directed his way. I will let him answer for himself, but I want to bring in my own thoughts to discuss a few of your points.

Firstly, you don't need to justify your own beliefs. Not everything in this world requires an explanation, nor does everything have one. Put it this way. Do you ever consider 'luck' or general 'superstitions' to be unworthy because they have no explanation? Are you questioned every time you say 'oh that's lucky' on the basis of whether luck even exists? No, because luck is just a common perception that cannot be explained and may not even exist. Religion is the same. So what if someone believes in a type of God, they don't need to justify why they hold that particular view on the world. As I've said over and over again, unless somebody tries to impose their own beliefs on other people, there is nothing wrong with being religious or non-religious. Especially in a 21st century democracy, people should have the freedom to practise and choose their faith without being harassed by sceptics.

My previous point was perfectly clear. Religion has a very strong link to culture. Culture does not need to be proved, it exists as a tangible entity. Criticising someone's religion can therefore often be construed as a direct attack on their culture and identity. It is not for the sake of doing it. It defines us as individuals and differentiates us from other cultures and nations. Without culture, language and history we have nothing to build on or pass-on to future generations. Religion plays a strong part in all these areas, for better and sometimes for worse.

Good for you, you're an atheist. I respect that. I don't care if you can justify it because I will not attack it in the first place. It is your own choice and one that should be accepted by your peers. I expect the same acknowledgement to be directed from you as well.

Your last point is the one that makes the most sense. Religion has often been used as a form of control and exploitation, and one must think whether or not our world would (and would've) been better without religion. It has also been used to unite and bring people together. Overall it has had both a positive and negative impact on our world. But the fact of the matter is that religion is here today, and regardless of its' past (good or bad), it exists in our modern society. That is the point I stress, and the point people need to learn to accept and respect.

[Ferocious Banger]

STUPID ATHIESTSS

Follow Epsilonism


Kifflom

[onefreeman]

I don't believe there is but I like a suprise.