[Antinark]

Quebec Passes Anti-Protest Laws

I was going to post this in DnD however I felt the topic is not only current but relevant to a lot of folks going through post-secondary at the moment.

A bit of backstory:

The government of Quebec, Canada recently passed legislation to increase the price of annual post-secondary tuition by over $1500.00 staggered over five years of smaller hikes. On average Quebec is one of the most heavily subsidized education systems in North America, and students pay a little over $2000.00 a year for school (for comparison, it costs over $6000.00/year to attend and institution in the neighbouring province of Ontario).

As soon as the increases were announced, several student unions voted to strike until a compromise was met. As sons and daughters of the Quiet Revolution generation, many young Quebecois feel that universal education is a right and that post-secondary school should be free and accessible to everyone. They took to the streets to protests, engaged in campaigns of civil disobedience and formed picket lines outside of their universities.

Today marks the 100th day of the movement and it is being capped off with the biggest march to date. The city of Montreal has been in a chokehold of wildcat strikes, marches and gatherings for almost three months now and the students and government have failed to meet a compromise thus far. In response to the ceaseless protests, the provincial government and municipality of Quebec has legislated new laws that restrict ones right to protest.

These laws restrict:

-The right the right to assemble in groups exceeding 25 people without 8 hours notice to the police and a pre-authorized route.
-The ability to wear a mask in public.
-The ability to form picket lines at institutions thus preventing other students from entering.

Should one not abide by these laws they are liable for arrest of a stiff financial penalty.

As soon as they law came into effect, the sh*t hit the fan. Police have been arresting and pepper-spraying citizens en masse and students have been responding with molotov cocktails, bonfires and the threat of a summer filled with protest (thus decimating the tourist season). The law essentially fanned the flames of discontent and has turned the protest from against tuition hikes into one about civil rights.

Many outside of Quebec feel that these kids are entitled brats who are resorting to violence over a minor increase of an already EXTREMELY government-subsidized education. The students feel that the increase is an unnecessary symptom of austerity and that the government is back peddling on promises it made a generation ago.

Quebec has always been a slant more European than North American, and there are many places in Europe that make free-education work. Which leads me to ask, is free education a right? Are these students overreacting or are they fighting for a principle that many states should take into consideration?

In all honesty I don't see the Quebec youth backing down. The region as a whole has a propensity for socialism and popular movement and it seems like the zeitgeist of the time is to oppose the pre-dominant conservative ideology currently held in most of Canada. I wouldn't be surprised if this lead to copy-cat protests in other parts of Canada and the U.S. much in the fashion of the occupy movement last fall.

Thoughts?

[GTA_stu]

Well here in the UK tuition fees have been tripled, although I was lucky as it comes into effect next year meaning it doesn't affect me. But you can get student loans which you don't have to pay off until you are earning a certain amount, and there's also no interest on the loans. There was a lot of outrage over it, but it seems pretty fair to me. I don't know what the loan system is like over there though, but if its something similar then I'd say they're acting over-privileged.

[Antinark]

Not too sure about Quebec. In Ontario you have to start paying back your loans within 6 months of graduating, and they accumulate interest over the summer/whenever you're not enrolled.

[bluesboyjr]

QUOTE (GTA_stu @ Tuesday, May 22 2012, 20:42)

Well here in the UK tuition fees have been tripled, although I was lucky as it comes into effect next year meaning it doesn't affect me. But you can get student loans which you don't have to pay off until you are earning a certain amount, and there's also no interest on the loans. There was a lot of outrage over it, but it seems pretty fair to me. I don't know what the loan system is like over there though, but if its something similar then I'd say they're acting over-privileged.

I'm in the same boat as you with regards to the increase - I think it's fair, but I still get to laugh at the buggers in the year below.

Education is a right, but only up to a certain point where it prepares a child for life in society - the taxpayer shouldn't be paying for someone to get a degree in Art History.

[Chunkyman]

Dawww, poor little babies.

To answer the question in the original post, "free" education is not a right in any capacity. In order to give students "free" education, the government must take that money from someone else. To say you have a right to education is to say you have a right to other people's money, which I find morally sickening.

These students aren't standing up for their rights, they're standing up for the government robbing Peter (taxpayers) to pay Paul (themselves).

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Tuesday, May 22 2012, 21:36)

These students aren't standing up for their rights, they're standing up for the government robbing Peter (taxpayers) to pay Paul (themselves).

This, basically. Whilst I believe wholeheartedly that education should be based on merit above all else, any system that, like those of the UK and Canada, encourages more than about 10% of the population go onto higher education must find some way of funding it that isn't taxpayer-led. If you have a small population in higher education as opposed to a larger one, they're probably going to be capable of paying for themselves because of the value of research and increased tax income over a lifetime. But if everyone goes to university (or aspires to do such) then that just isn't feasible. The minimum harm to the many must triumph over the maximum good for the few; hence no state-funded higher education unless in truly exceptional circumstances.

Personally, I don't even agree with the current UK system, where most state institutions are funded directly through HEFCE. I find it absurd that research-led universities (as all the best state ones are) take government funding to pay for their research programs- it's an enormous conflict of interest.

[finn4life]

QUOTE (Antinark @ Wednesday, May 23 2012, 06:24)

Many outside of Quebec feel that these kids are entitled brats who are resorting to violence over a minor increase of an already EXTREMELY government-subsidized education. The students feel that the increase is an unnecessary symptom of austerity and that the government is back peddling on promises it made a generation ago.

Well in all honesty, i want to say 'Stop being little bitches', you are over-entitled.
It is already heavily subsidized, a small increase shouldn't be such a big deal, you are getting a service, you are getting educated in the hopes of earning back all money + Profit that went into educating you.
I also find it funny that they are saying the government is 'Back Peddling on promises', well hate to break it to those kiddos, but that's how government is .

QUOTE

Quebec has always been a slant more European than North American, and there are many places in Europe that make free-education work. Which leads me to ask, is free education a right? Are these students overreacting or are they fighting for a principle that many states should take into consideration?

Well in the interest of a country, free education is important, but up to University is paid for, after that you should be old enough and wise enough to organise your own funds for University (especially when it is already cheap).

[Torcidas]

Whiners. Like mentioned already, come on down to Ontario and see how you like it there instead. I'm paying 11,000$ a year to study computer science at UofT, and I don't even f*cking live on residence. No pity.

[Icarus]

I've been following this and I have some friends in Quebec, one on the side of the strikes and one who is opposed. While I understand, to some extent, where they're coming from, I really cannot say I support them. Quebec is a little different from the rest of Canada in that secondary school goes up to the equivalent of grade eleven (Secondaire V). After that, you can attend what is known as a CEGEP, which translates in English to college of general and vocational education. Your second year of CEGEP (it's only two years, and it's free) counts towards your first year at a post-secondary education, so when they get out and go to a post-secondary institution in Quebec, they only have to pay for three years (kind of like when Ontario had Grade 13 back in the day and it counted as your first year of post-secondary).

Now, three years of paying for your education and having the lowest tuition fees in the country, I really can't take them seriously when they're bitching about the fees. I live in Alberta, the province that gives money to help with education subsidization through equalization payments, and I paid about $5,200/year to start and near the end of my B.Sc., that was about $5,600/year. Was it expensive? Yes. Did I know that it was going to be expense? Yes, of course. I knew I was going to have to make sacrifices and I managed to be one of the lucky ones that got my education without debt, but even if I had acquired debt, I would have worked to pay it off eventually. University is an investment and you have to be willing to take a hit for a greater benefit in the end.

I also don't believe post-secondary education should be free, because it's going to be the taxpayers footing the entire bill (considering most universities, the government foots about 70% of operational costs). For example, if someone goes to university and pisses away their first year, why should the taxpayer have to foot the bill? If you want to waste money, waste your own goddamn money. I believe in post-secondary being reasonably cheap, but not free. As well, people will use Europe as an example, but people forget that their tax rates are much higher than Canada, notwithstanding some of those countries ask for some military service. So really, it's not like they're getting it for free - there's some give and take, essentially.

I was also laughing because I was reading an article about students in Quebec being pissed that English Canada isn't supporting them. Well, duh. If this was happening in, for example, Ontario, do you think Quebec would give a damn? Not a chance. I was laughing when the article said this was helping to fuel the separation movement. If Quebec separated, they wouldn't have access to equalization payments and if they think the tuition increase they have now is bad, wait and see when subsidization takes a major blow.

I honestly wish more of the post-secondary subsidization money would be sent to New Brunswick (my home province). It's poor as can be and they have one of the highest tuition rates in Canada. It makes no sense.

[EDIT] As for Bill 78, it's definitely extreme. I agree with the provision about the banning of masks, because chances are, if you're wearing a mask, you're trying to avoid having your face on CCTV. If you vandalize, you need to be held accountable.

As for the protesting one, that's a bit iffy.

This post has been edited by Icarus on Tuesday, May 22 2012, 23:46

[NikoGTA4]

I"m really tired of them. As a student myself, I just can't wait till Harper takes interest with the situation and bring the Canadian Army. Those whiners are doing riots every freaking nights, there's one tonight because it's the 100th day of the strike and all they cry about is how police is brutal and all.
Go to the USA and realize how you are lucky, here police is a lot nicer than the american cops.
It's almost the same as the FLQ (Québec Liberation Front) in 1970. They brought the army and they took control of the situation.
A week ago our Education Minister has resigned because it was too much.

The left extremists want to have a total FREE education. How is that possible? They want to increase all the tax fees. We aren't like Norway or Finland which is their case. They have high tax fees, so they can have a free education.

[Icarus]

QUOTE (NikoGTA4 @ Tuesday, May 22 2012, 17:55)

It's almost the same as the FLQ (Québec Liberation Front) in 1970. They brought the army and they took control of the situation.

There is a difference, though. Trudeau had access to the War Measures Act, which really helped in those regards. It was repealed in 1988 and replaced by the Emergencies Act.

[Irviding]

Compared to what you guys in other countries pay for tuition, I think it's spoiled and ridiculous. I mean those protests in the UK over tuition hikes were just bullsh*t, in my view as an American paying 50 grand plus per year for college. On the other hand though I understand it's something you haven't been paying that much for. and suddenly have to pay a lot more for.

[nightwalker83]

QUOTE (GTA_stu @ Wednesday, May 23 2012, 06:12)

Well here in the UK tuition fees have been tripled

What do you expect with conserves running the country? I wish education was still free like it was all those years ago, at least here in Australia.

[Otter]

A few things, off the cuff because I've only got a quick moment here:

- The whole "you've got it better off than X" argument is complete bullsh*t in this respect and any other. There's no defense for it. Everyone's got it better off at everything than some poor starving bloated Ethiopian AIDs child - should we all just accept the sh*t we disagree with because of that? No, obviously not. I don't care that Americans pay a retarded amount of money for a degree. We're not Americans.

- I'm sick of the sit-in mentality. What a pisspoor way to try and achieve something. Nothing will ever come from sitting around, complaining, looking to all the world like a bunch of spoiled little sh*ts. You want to take a stand? Default on your student loans and protest in a court. Put your balls on the line if you really believe in it.

- That said, f*ck this new attempt to shut them up. Who was the f*cking brilliant strategist who came up with this one? Limiting the freedom of protesting will only, invariably, lead to more protesting and dissent. Each case will inevitably be thrown out of court. And who's going to pay for those ridiculous legal fees? Why, the same tax payers who would probably be a lot happier knowing that their taxes went to fund an education.

[Irviding]

QUOTE

I don't care that Americans pay a retarded amount of money for a degree. We're not Americans.

Right, I see your point there absolutely. Pretty much any other American will disagree, because we pay exorbitant fees for education here (though not to sound bombastic, our universities are generally rival to none) and people just don't have sympathy for Europeans and Canadians who get free rides and now have to pay a tiny bit towards their education. I mean considering you guys up there pay a lot more in taxes than we do, I feel your pain. It's a fee on something you've never had to pay for. It's like making we Americans pay a massive, brand new fee to the government to buy guns. Still though, just look at we f*cking pay here and maybe realize you have it pretty good.

This post has been edited by Irviding on Wednesday, May 23 2012, 02:46

[Oakshaft]

They are a bunch of whiney little sh*ts, and the protests are actually getting violent, I say we should try to id the protestors like we did for vancouver and ban them from going to college in quebec. if they want to disrupt the education of the people who actually want to learn, they can just not go to college

[zoo3891]

QUOTE (Oakshaft @ Tuesday, May 22 2012, 20:26)

They are a bunch of whiney little sh*ts, and the protests are actually getting violent, I say we should try to id the protestors like we did for vancouver and ban them from going to college in quebec. if they want to disrupt the education of the people who actually want to learn, they can just not go to college

I think that'd just create more anger. With the new laws Quebec is already pushing them.

On May 1 I saw a video of a bunch of Quebecan protesters throwing rocks at a police bus after they attempted to run over a protester (I think). Not all of them are afraid of resorting to violence, and IDing them/banning them from college would be like trying to stop an erupting volcano by covering its hole, it'd just make it worse. Not to mention that privacy is a huge concern among anarchist protesters and trying to ID or tag them would be very unsuccessful.

[Bad Azz]

As a Quebecer myself, I have to admit this is bullsh*t. f*cking whiners