[Sanjeem]

First, just to let me make myself clear, despite my signature which does contain "Fascist Symbols" as it were, to me they are just there as they represent my symbols of my Nation State (Game). However the topic of Fascism and Far Right movements really do interest me. Before people judge, What I think Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin + any other extreme dictator has done in the past is completely wrong and just disgraceful to mankind. However in the recent months we have seen more right wing supporters spring up in Greece, Called the Golden Dawn. In Other countries such as Italy more far right groups have popped up and gaining support. Maybe not for the "Right reasons" and by that I mean some people are just dumb and racist who support these groups but never the less.

But economically and spiritually don't you think some of these European countries who have been hit hard by the economic crisis be better under Far Right rule? If not maybe even Far Left rule but like in almost every historic event in history, when people feel downgraded and lose their pride, they always turn to the extreme. That is kind of happening now I think, for better or for worse. I'm not even sure if Far right rule in general can be better for the economy. But what is your view on the matter?

[sivispacem]

There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed.

And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe.

[Sanjeem]

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 14:56)

There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed. And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe.

Just out of curiosity because you seem to know what you are talking about every time you post, is Fascism and Far Right extremism more common or acceptable in Southern European countries than Northern European countries these days. Can performing some sort of Nazi/Roman salute these days in most Western countries carry a jail sentence? Surely burning poppies on armistice day is just as bad and the Muslim Extremists only got fines.

[Typhus]

A vote for the far right is a vote for barbarism, ignorance and international isolation.
Far-right policies are inferior and have proven to be inferior in every poor, benighted country that has adopted them. They invariably lead to systems which are either plutocratic and governed by corporate stooges or almost Monarchical, hereditary tyrannies with the trappings of Republicanism.
To cover for their dire record on human rights and civil liberties, they always blame some convenient scapegoat, often one they conjure out of thin air.
Let's look at some examples, shall we?

Idi Amin blamed Asians and expelled them to England, Trujillo blamed Haitians and had thousands murdered, Hitler blamed the Jews, Mussolini blamed Socialists. In the modern world, psuedo-fascists like Berlusconi and Chavez have followed suit, using vast media control to slander the hazily defined 'Communists' and 'Westerners'.

The European far-right hides behind words we know and trust. Democracy, culture, tradition. But believe me when I say this, they are as dangerous and reactionary as any bearded Jihadist. They seek only chaos, chaos and disunity, your fear is their gain.
They are not a viable choice, they are nothing but a foul swamp of zealots, opportunists and populists. And eventually every single one of these parties will betray the very people who voted for them.

[thatstupidbug]

QUOTE (Sanjeem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 14:37)

First, just to let me make myself clear, despite my signature which does contain "Fascist Symbols" as it were, to me they are just there as they represent my symbols of my Nation State (Game). However the topic of Fascism and Far Right movements really do interest me. Before people judge, What I think Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin + any other extreme dictator has done in the past is completely wrong and just disgraceful to mankind. However in the recent months we have seen more right wing supporters spring up in Greece, Called the Golden Dawn. In Other countries such as Italy more far right groups have popped up and gaining support. Maybe not for the "Right reasons" and by that I mean some people are just dumb and racist who support these groups but never the less. But economically and spiritually don't you think some of these European countries who have been hit hard by the economic crisis be better under Far Right rule? If not maybe even Far Left rule but like in almost every historic event in history, when people feel downgraded and lose their pride, they always turn to the extreme. That is kind of happening now I think, for better or for worse. I'm not even sure if Far right rule in general can be better for the economy. But what is your view on the matter?

are you italian? if yes, what are the new "far right group" with gaining support? all the big parties are in decline, and the only new movement I can remember is the "Movimento 5 stelle" (5-stars movement), and it isn't a "left" or "right" party (as they claim). there's "AN" and "La destra" (The Right), but they are very, very small.

Am I missing something?

sorry if not everyone of you will understand my request about italian policy, but it's just my curiosity

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Sanjeem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 16:18)

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 14:56) There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed. And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe. Just out of curiosity because you seem to know what you are talking about every time you post, is Fascism and Far Right extremism more common or acceptable in Southern European countries than Northern European countries these days. Can performing some sort of Nazi/Roman salute these days in most Western countries carry a jail sentence? Surely burning poppies on armistice day is just as bad and the Muslim Extremists only got fines.

I would say yes, but primarily because the economies and political infrastructures of Southern European countries are less...mature, shall we say? For instance, Spain didn't become democratic until the mid 1970s. Generally, countries with higher political corruption and less stable economies are more prone to political radicalism in all its kinds. Just look at the rise of Anarchism and Communism in Greece...

[Typhus]

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 20:46)

QUOTE (Sanjeem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 16:18) QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 14:56) There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed. And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe. Just out of curiosity because you seem to know what you are talking about every time you post, is Fascism and Far Right extremism more common or acceptable in Southern European countries than Northern European countries these days. Can performing some sort of Nazi/Roman salute these days in most Western countries carry a jail sentence? Surely burning poppies on armistice day is just as bad and the Muslim Extremists only got fines. I would say yes, but primarily because the economies and political infrastructures of Southern European countries are less...mature, shall we say? For instance, Spain didn't become democratic until the mid 1970s. Generally, countries with higher political corruption and less stable economies are more prone to political radicalism in all its kinds. Just look at the rise of Anarchism and Communism in Greece...

Which is why I maintain that we should reduce the number of member states in the European Union and redraw the map of the continent to distance ourselves from potentially combustible elements, as Greece has proven to be.
You're right, for so many of these countries democracy is nothing but a brief flirtation and at the first sign of trouble they go back to their old habits, back to the strong-men and the juntas and the thugs.
Frankly, it has become an embarrassment.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 15:46)

QUOTE (Sanjeem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 16:18) QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 14:56) There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed. And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe. Just out of curiosity because you seem to know what you are talking about every time you post, is Fascism and Far Right extremism more common or acceptable in Southern European countries than Northern European countries these days. Can performing some sort of Nazi/Roman salute these days in most Western countries carry a jail sentence? Surely burning poppies on armistice day is just as bad and the Muslim Extremists only got fines. I would say yes, but primarily because the economies and political infrastructures of Southern European countries are less...mature, shall we say? For instance, Spain didn't become democratic until the mid 1970s. Generally, countries with higher political corruption and less stable economies are more prone to political radicalism in all its kinds. Just look at the rise of Anarchism and Communism in Greece...

I think Spain isn't a good example of that though. You're talking about the 5th largest economy in the entire EU, the 3rd most important financial center in the EU, etc. It's really not an example of a Southern European backwater country.

Typhus, in terms of the entire economic strength of the EU, it's better to have even the small, crappy ones in there. Or is your opinion just more of a social one, that is you would only the countries that embrace more western European values in there?

[glenn tha killer]

Ireland would be better as socialist in my opinion. That goes to the fellow European countries in debt. Thats all I want for the government unless a strong party like Sìn Feìn gets power, although they would have to form government with others because they are two small which may foil any hope.

[Chunkyman]

QUOTE (glenn tha killer @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 22:21)

That goes to the fellow European countries in debt.

Err... How would more socialism help them solve the debt problem (or any problem...)?

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Monday, May 14 2012, 00:32)

QUOTE (glenn tha killer @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 22:21) That goes to the fellow European countries in debt. Err... How would more socialism help them solve the debt problem (or any problem...)?

A good question- it wouldn't. In fact, it's almost guaranteed to make things worse.

[Irviding]

Not necessarily. You pour some fiscal stimulus into these countries, get their economies running again, then after pass a large, EU-wide long term austerity plan. Either that, or keep trying to cut your way to prosperity in the middle of a recession (and cause another one in the UK while yoyre at it). I migjy also add which is worse in the long run because you'll have more debt to deal with than you would if you did nothing

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Monday, May 14 2012, 11:29)

Not necessarily. You pour some fiscal stimulus into these countries, get their economies running again, then after pass a large, EU-wide long term austerity plan. Either that, or keep trying to cut your way to prosperity in the middle of a recession (and cause another one in the UK while yoyre at it). I migjy also add which is worse in the long run because you'll have more debt to deal with than you would if you did nothing

That only really applies to subsidising parts of the economy which produce measurable value though. The issue thus fast has been the lack of any real merit behind the planning of such investment. That's also implied by the Socialist statement. I wholeheartedly agree that targeted funding is required to ensure proper growth but take the example of public healthcare expenditure in the UK as an example. A doubling of investment has resulted in no measurable gain in quality and no real return on that investment so why continue investing to the same degree if it doesn't actually improve things? That's why cost cutting needs to be wisely targeted on areas of the public sector which are revenue and benefit neutral or worse.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Monday, May 14 2012, 09:23)

QUOTE (Irviding @ Monday, May 14 2012, 11:29) Not necessarily. You pour some fiscal stimulus into these countries, get their economies running again, then after pass a large, EU-wide long term austerity plan. Either that, or keep trying to cut your way to prosperity in the middle of a recession (and cause another one in the UK while yoyre at it). I migjy also add which is worse in the long run because you'll have more debt to deal with than you would if you did nothing That only really applies to subsidising parts of the economy which produce measurable value though. The issue thus fast has been the lack of any real merit behind the planning of such investment. That's also implied by the Socialist statement. I wholeheartedly agree that targeted funding is required to ensure proper growth but take the example of public healthcare expenditure in the UK as an example. A doubling of investment has resulted in no measurable gain in quality and no real return on that investment so why continue investing to the same degree if it doesn't actually improve things? That's why cost cutting needs to be wisely targeted on areas of the public sector which are revenue and benefit neutral or worse.

It's not even subsidizing. It's just simply pouring money into the economy, in the form of tax credits, infrastructure projects, etc. I don't agree with cutting even the most overpaid workers in time of a recession because you just contract the economy further.

[Sanjeem]

QUOTE (thatstupidbug @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 20:37)

QUOTE (Sanjeem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 14:37) First, just to let me make myself clear, despite my signature which does contain "Fascist Symbols" as it were, to me they are just there as they represent my symbols of my Nation State (Game). However the topic of Fascism and Far Right movements really do interest me. Before people judge, What I think Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin + any other extreme dictator has done in the past is completely wrong and just disgraceful to mankind. However in the recent months we have seen more right wing supporters spring up in Greece, Called the Golden Dawn. In Other countries such as Italy more far right groups have popped up and gaining support. Maybe not for the "Right reasons" and by that I mean some people are just dumb and racist who support these groups but never the less. But economically and spiritually don't you think some of these European countries who have been hit hard by the economic crisis be better under Far Right rule? If not maybe even Far Left rule but like in almost every historic event in history, when people feel downgraded and lose their pride, they always turn to the extreme. That is kind of happening now I think, for better or for worse. I'm not even sure if Far right rule in general can be better for the economy. But what is your view on the matter? are you italian? if yes, what are the new "far right group" with gaining support? all the big parties are in decline, and the only new movement I can remember is the "Movimento 5 stelle" (5-stars movement), and it isn't a "left" or "right" party (as they claim). there's "AN" and "La destra" (The Right), but they are very, very small. Am I missing something? sorry if not everyone of you will understand my request about italian policy, but it's just my curiosity

You missed out the Tricolour Flame, here take a look. They aren't big at all but much bigger and probably have more influence than the BNP would have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricolour_Flame

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Sanjeem @ Sunday, May 20 2012, 11:49)

QUOTE (thatstupidbug @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 20:37) QUOTE (Sanjeem @ Sunday, May 13 2012, 14:37) First, just to let me make myself clear, despite my signature which does contain "Fascist Symbols" as it were, to me they are just there as they represent my symbols of my Nation State (Game). However the topic of Fascism and Far Right movements really do interest me. Before people judge, What I think Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin + any other extreme dictator has done in the past is completely wrong and just disgraceful to mankind. However in the recent months we have seen more right wing supporters spring up in Greece, Called the Golden Dawn. In Other countries such as Italy more far right groups have popped up and gaining support. Maybe not for the "Right reasons" and by that I mean some people are just dumb and racist who support these groups but never the less. But economically and spiritually don't you think some of these European countries who have been hit hard by the economic crisis be better under Far Right rule? If not maybe even Far Left rule but like in almost every historic event in history, when people feel downgraded and lose their pride, they always turn to the extreme. That is kind of happening now I think, for better or for worse. I'm not even sure if Far right rule in general can be better for the economy. But what is your view on the matter? are you italian? if yes, what are the new "far right group" with gaining support? all the big parties are in decline, and the only new movement I can remember is the "Movimento 5 stelle" (5-stars movement), and it isn't a "left" or "right" party (as they claim). there's "AN" and "La destra" (The Right), but they are very, very small. Am I missing something? sorry if not everyone of you will understand my request about italian policy, but it's just my curiosity You missed out the Tricolour Flame, here take a look. They aren't big at all but much bigger and probably have more influence than the BNP would have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricolour_Flame

I'd dispute that. The BNP have both more popular support, and have MEPs, whereas Tricolour flame don't.

[Killer.Khan]

I think some of them such as Greece/Italy/Spain would. They are the defenders of European borders and groups like the Golden Dawn are showing that people are increasingly frustrated with them becoming a minority in their own countries of heritage and I can sympathize with that.

In my opinion, these far-right parties are totally justified and have a purpose/reason to exist as an outlet of anger from the native peoples.

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Killer.Khan @ Saturday, May 26 2012, 03:35)

I think some of them such as Greece/Italy/Spain would. They are the defenders of European borders and groups like the Golden Dawn are showing that people are increasingly frustrated with them becoming a minority in their own countries of heritage and I can sympathize with that. In my opinion, these far-right parties are totally justified and have a purpose/reason to exist as an outlet of anger from the native peoples.

So you think it's perfectly okay to use legal immigrants and expatriates as a scapegoat for national problems largely caused by a domestic minority? To me, that absolutely beggars belief. Nations joined the EU not because they were forced to, but because popular opinion dictated they should. To suddenly become swallowed up by a sense of bigoted, nationalistic pride when things go tits-up and start blaming foreigners, minorities and immigrants is utterly absurd, completely illogical and incredibly dangerous. Isn't that how the persecution of the Jews started in Germany?

[gtaivpc]

f*cking neonazis man. f*cking neonazis.
http://eagainst.com/articles/greek-neonazi...opponent-on-tv/

btw you are simply advocating those far-right neonazi parties because you have no f*cking clue what you're talking about. my country has been under a dictatorship. people were slaughtered, massacred, tortured, and put in exile. no freedom of speech, no rights. no, that's not the solution.

-This is D&D, not general chat. Please ensure future posts are up to the standards of the subforum. SVP.-

This post has been edited by sivispacem on Thursday, Jun 7 2012, 18:29

[JoakimThastrom]

I really don't give a sh*t if the islamophobic SD, nationalist SvP or left wing socialdemocrats run Sweden aslong as they get us out of EU, take soldiers back from abroad and stop taking in 1000 Somalis a week.


Would be nice to see some companies other than Jewish Bonniers producing schoolbooks, or Conspiracy Keanu might turn right-wing!
Teach every theory, conspiracy, ideology etc in schools.


Oh and I'm a second gen immigrant, so no reason to call me an evil nazi

This post has been edited by JoakimThastrom on Monday, Jun 11 2012, 19:50