[Irviding]

That's not relevant to the point I was making earlier, which is religions in general do massive amounts of good.

[DeeperRed]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, May 9 2012, 10:31)

That's not relevant to the point I was making earlier, which is religions in general do massive amounts of good.

Yes religion does a lot of good but thats not to say Atheists don't. You don't automatically do good things by being religious, you as a person have to do them. I bet if we, right now, look at money raised for charity by religious people and by atheists and worked out the ratio it would be similar PP. ( I know thats not possible, but its the only way you would be able to show how one does more good then the other)

This post has been edited by DeeperRed on Wednesday, May 9 2012, 10:53

[Irviding]

But I didnt say Atheists didn't. I was responding to the point that all religion does is molest children.

[Typhus]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, May 9 2012, 10:31)

That's not relevant to the point I was making earlier, which is religions in general do massive amounts of good.

But why should we judge any movement based on the good it does?
Let's be honest here, every food drive and every prayer hasn't done a damn thing to solve homelessness or the scourge of addiction. The detractors of religion often use that as a way of lambasting the faith of others. By consistently questioning their compassion and devotion to humanitarianism.

Yet both Atheist and theist are equally impotent when it comes to alleviating the suffering of others.

As I said before, we should judge a movement based on the artistic contributions it has made throughout history. There will never be a point at which the followers of Christ can clap their hands and end famine, but their shared faith can create works of great beauty.

Too many Atheists are utopian in nature, they want peace and civility. I firmly maintain that the differences and conflicts religion has created yield a more imaginative, inspiring culture.

[Vercetti27]

you can tell yourself you believe in god, but if you just don't, it doesn't do any good reading the bible and abiding by someone else's ethos on how to live. that doesn't make one spiritual, spirituality is beyond religion , it's a separate realm.

QUOTE (Irviding)

What about the fact that Christianity encourages massive amounts of charity and saves probably millions of lives a year by providing food, shelter, and clothing. What the f*ck is wrong with that

Isn't that down to pure human goodwill more than anything? What about the non-religous charities which raise millions per year without the smug christian tent over themselves and without the preaching of "we're doing good, praise jesus".

This post has been edited by Vercetti27 on Monday, May 14 2012, 14:54

[MoroccanGeek]

Hey guys,I'd like to say Hi .I'm a Muslim(Theist of an arab religion),and I agree of all what my fellow written in the introduction.I don't really like to debate in religious things,as I am still a beginner in my religion and looking forward to become more religious than ever,it's just that some debates about religions turn into fights and humiliations.

[El Zilcho]

1. If you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu and God (or Allah) would have cursed you to purgatory (or Hell) for your birth in a non-Christian land. So much for Omni-Benevolence.

2. Most literal tales or explanations for what the ancients couldn't understand (creation stories, miracles) are passed off today as 'non-literal' simply when science proves them to be incorrect. How can you place your faith in something that flip flops more than American politicians?

3. Why believe in something that has no evidence, simply for the comfort that it brings? If I were to dive from a tenement roof, the belief in a huge mattress below would be comforting but completely unfounded.

4. Why must the Universe (inherently neutral and amoral) be judged by Human standards? Is the beauty and complexity of the world around us so in dire need of watering down to our level? It seems arrogant to assume an intelligent being who thinks exactly like us exists and created the Universe in such a childishly simple way.

5. The God of the Bible (or for that matter, the Torah and Qoran) is a megalomaniacal, self absorbed and infantile brute. While his wishy washy reforms of the New Testament can be seen to reconcile some of his actions, his insistence on humanity repressing it's own nature (that he apparently created) smacks of petty excuses we as a species have dreamt up to justify his flawed creations.

Just a few from the top of my head, apologies for their disjointed nature.

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (MoroccanGeek @ Monday, May 14 2012, 12:18)

looking forward to become more religious than ever

I feel very sorry for you.

I implore you to reconsider before you waste your entire life on a fruitless pursuit.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, May 14 2012, 09:44)

you can tell yourself you believe in god, but if you just don't, it doesn't do any good reading the bible and abiding by someone else's ethos on how to live. that doesn't make one spiritual, spirituality is beyond religion , it's a separate realm. QUOTE (Irviding) What about the fact that Christianity encourages massive amounts of charity and saves probably millions of lives a year by providing food, shelter, and clothing. What the f*ck is wrong with that Isn't that down to pure human goodwill more than anything? What about the non-religous charities which raise millions per year without the smug christian tent over themselves and without the preaching of "we're doing good, praise jesus".

All of you are so deluded in your hatred of religion from what I believe to be some kind of forced childhood or some kind of thought that everyone that practices religion is Rick Santorum. I hate to tell you it's not as you'd think.

I don't agree that it's down to pure human goodwill. Nor do I agree with this ridiculous notion that our simplest morals of today do not come from religion. Not sleeping with your neighbor's wife, you guys might say oh that's common sense, but what made it common sense? Religion.

Once again, you have a very deluded and frankly offensive view of Christianity. I don't know what church you're looking at, but when mine back home on f*cking Long Island NY does charities it does not make loving Jesus a prerequisite for receiving their goods. Religious charities, in the US at least, are some of the most benevolent members of society. All of you Europeans absolutely hate religion for whatever reason and I don't know why. It's just stupid.

How can you say that religion is fruitless, diablo? Like I said before, you are the same Mr. Liberal railing on people for not tolerating gays and Muslims but you won't even give the time of day to people who go to church for an hour Sunday and want a little bit of faith in their lives.

[AlexGTAGamer]

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Monday, May 14 2012, 22:36)

QUOTE (MoroccanGeek @ Monday, May 14 2012, 12:18) looking forward to become more religious than ever I feel very sorry for you. I implore you to reconsider before you waste your entire life on a fruitless pursuit.

We don't live in Communist Russia or North Korea, people are free to believe in whichever religion they like - Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Jediism, whatever.

If he wants to live his life dedicated to Islam, fine I wish you well MoroccanGeek, who are we to decide what a person can and cannot believe in?

[El_Diablo]

I'm not deciding anything for him.
I'm not saying he can't believe whatever he wants.

I'm urging him to seek rationale as opposed to a life of brainwashed servitude.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Monday, May 14 2012, 18:32)

I'm not deciding anything for him. I'm not saying he can't believe whatever he wants. I'm urging him to seek rationale as opposed to a life of brainwashed servitude.

How is it brainwashed servitude? Where are you getting this from? Were you raised as a Mormon or something? Seriously - your hatred of religion is disturbing.

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Monday, May 14 2012, 17:24)

How is it brainwashed servitude?

how is it not?

religion spoon-feeds you the answers to life's more important questions.
it says you cannot think for yourself or thoughtfully arrive at your own conclusions.

it says here are the answers.
don't question anything.

it asks you to love a celestial dictator and devote yourself to him more than to your own family.
it says that you cannot be moral without the guidelines put forth by the celestial dictator.

and the morality that it presents is false.
religion hangs the reward of everlasting life or the punishment of eternal torture over your head like a carrot-and-stick act. instead of asking you to do good for the sake of being good, it dangles inexplicable incentives in front of your nose.

this is not morality.

QUOTE

Where are you getting this from?

the Bible.
the Qu'ran.
the Vedas.

take your pick.
they're all the same ambiguous drivel.

QUOTE

Seriously - your hatred of religion is disturbing.

is it?
I don't feel the need to respect religion or religious beliefs. I don't accept their premise and therefore telling me that my hatred for it is "disturbing" is really a non-sequitur.

religion represents an archaic form of philosophy that has no place in the modern world.
we've matured past the rest of our fairly tales, why not this one?

why pay any respect to wishful thinking?
wishful thinking without a shred of evidence, I might add.

[Vercetti27]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Monday, May 14 2012, 22:16)

QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, May 14 2012, 09:44) you can tell yourself you believe in god, but if you just don't, it doesn't do any good reading the bible and abiding by someone else's ethos on how to live. that doesn't make one spiritual, spirituality is beyond religion , it's a separate realm. QUOTE (Irviding) What about the fact that Christianity encourages massive amounts of charity and saves probably millions of lives a year by providing food, shelter, and clothing. What the f*ck is wrong with that Isn't that down to pure human goodwill more than anything? What about the non-religous charities which raise millions per year without the smug christian tent over themselves and without the preaching of "we're doing good, praise jesus". All of you are so deluded in your hatred of religion from what I believe to be some kind of forced childhood or some kind of thought that everyone that practices religion is Rick Santorum. I hate to tell you it's not as you'd think. I don't agree that it's down to pure human goodwill. Nor do I agree with this ridiculous notion that our simplest morals of today do not come from religion. Not sleeping with your neighbor's wife, you guys might say oh that's common sense, but what made it common sense? Religion. Once again, you have a very deluded and frankly offensive view of Christianity. I don't know what church you're looking at, but when mine back home on f*cking Long Island NY does charities it does not make loving Jesus a prerequisite for receiving their goods. Religious charities, in the US at least, are some of the most benevolent members of society. All of you Europeans absolutely hate religion for whatever reason and I don't know why. It's just stupid. How can you say that religion is fruitless, diablo? Like I said before, you are the same Mr. Liberal railing on people for not tolerating gays and Muslims but you won't even give the time of day to people who go to church for an hour Sunday and want a little bit of faith in their lives.

you call me deluded then described europeans as "hating religion". Your original quote sounded incredibly smug, if you think people's moral values come from religion then there is nothing to say, it's a stupid notion to say the least and I don't know where to start disproving it. People are not born without consiences, parents teach them right or wrong, even non religious families.

A lot of people detest religion for what it has done to the world, the suffering and war, would you say that is outweighed by the good, such as charities and such? I went to a Church of England school and we had to pray every day, we were practically taught to be christian, we were taught christian values (which btw atheists may share) and it took me until I was about fifteen to realise what had gone on at my school. The subtle brainwashing that goes on disturbs me, in my neighbourhood there are catholic schools, and C of E schools. I find it difficult to believe that in such a liberal, progressive community such as mine schools and students are being separated by religion. It's not a big separation granted, but what good does incorporating religion into a school title do?

Throughout my life the religious people I have met have been unhappy people, taught to be religous by their parents. I knew a Jehovah's witness that read the bible almost every second of his spare time, his family didn't own a tv as his father said "it's full of propogandha bullsh*t and liberal rubbish". thats his son's actual quote, so you can see how I came to think what I do of religion. I tolerate other people's faith, but on the whole I would love a world without religion, and I have to say I don't like it.

This post has been edited by Vercetti27 on Tuesday, May 15 2012, 17:36

[Irviding]

QUOTE

parents teach them right or wrong, even non religious families.

And those rights or wrongs historically came from religious teachings.

Look, like I said, it seems you Europeans have some strange hatred of religion that I don't quite understand. Not all churches brainwash people. And you and I know pretty well that even if they do, kids make the choice to stay with the church or not by the time they get out of college. Many choose not to. It's that simple. This isn't some kind of societal brainwashing that you need to be opposed to and practically hate anyone who practices a religion. It's just wrong in every way, especially from el diablo, who the rest of the time is a liberal.

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, May 15 2012, 15:13)

And those rights or wrongs historically came from religious teachings.

right and wrong - morality itself - long predates religion.

there was morality before religion.
people knew what was right or wrong before religion.

to say otherwise is supremely ignorant.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Tuesday, May 15 2012, 17:22)

QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, May 15 2012, 15:13) And those rights or wrongs historically came from religious teachings. right and wrong - morality itself - long predates religion. there was morality before religion. people knew what was right or wrong before religion. to say otherwise is supremely ignorant.

I'm aware of that. Are you seriously going to tell me, however, that we knew from the getgo, the beginning of human existence, that nailing your neighbor's wife is wrong? That tattling is wrong? Honor your mother and father? I mean come on. If you were to study common law, you'd notice that a lot of it comes from old Christian morals.

Again, I am not some ultra religious fanatic, but I find the hatred and sheer disrespect for religious people on this topic to be disturbing.

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, May 15 2012, 16:20)

from the getgo, the beginning of human existence

well of course there was a period of transition between primal instinct and higher level thought process.
we were savages for a time, yes.

but at the same time that we formed language and society (individual yet collective groups, the first villages) we also formed common-law ideals about respect and decency toward others. we could not have survived the transition from primitive to modern man had we not already had a shared sense of morality. we didn't have to wait for religion to invent it. we invented it through evolutionary response. our survival was predicated (and still is) on the support of others and sense of community.

QUOTE

If you were to study common law, you'd notice that a lot of it comes from old Christian morals.

if I were to study? I think the only person who needs to study here is you.
because that's not true at all.
common-law and the Golden Rule predate Christianity. they predate any form of organized religion. Christianity is not responsible for any type of morality that didn't exist before it came along.

mankind existed in it's modern form (opposable thumbs, almost no body hair, roughly 5 lb. brain, etc) for at least 100,000 years before the onset of Christianity. some say as many as 250k years, some say as little as 50-75k years. either way, it's a helluva long time. society and language and all sorts of belief systems were flourishing well in advance of the supposed Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus even spoke of a man who did good deeds merely for the sake of doing good.
it was the story of the Good Samaritan.

how could Jesus speak about a man who had inherent morals unless the man existed before Jesus?
and if the man existed before Jesus and the "revelation" of Christianity, then where did he get his morals?

the bible, as with most religious texts, is filled with these illogical loopholes.

the only reason mankind survived as a species and escaped the damning confines of Africa is because even those people knew how to respect each other and help each other for the sake of doing so. because helping others helped them. they didn't need 2 hefty stone tablets to tell them that. it was just obvious. it was inherent. as morality is inherent in all people. the ones who do not display common morality are put in their rightful place: sociopaths, psychopaths, mentally deficient, etc.

Christianity did not bring anything new to the table.
morals and common-law predate it by inumerous millenia.

QUOTE

I find the hatred and sheer disrespect for religious people on this topic to be disturbing.

I say again; religion and religious beliefs do not warrant respect.
they amount to nothing more than wishful thinking without a shred of evidence.

I do not accept the premise of religion, therefore telling me that my disrespect for it is "disturbing" is a non-sequitor.
personally I find it disturbing that people use their religious beliefs to justify bigotry and inform their worldview about a host of deeply controversial topics. issues that are controversial are often very personal (sexuality, definition of life, etc) and therefore should not be subjected to religious-based arguments.

religion does not deserve to sit at the same table as medical science, astronomy, or politics.
it's only place is the home or church.

This post has been edited by El_Diablo on Wednesday, May 16 2012, 00:34

[AlexGTAGamer]

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Wednesday, May 16 2012, 01:28)

religion does not deserve to sit at the same table as medical science, astronomy, or politics. it's only place is the home or church.

What I am getting from all of this is that you see religion as being like a leper, simply push it to one side and ignore it, don't go anywhere near it, and if you do go near to it you're mental.

That is your opinion on this debate and I respect it, there is no point getting into the whole argument of "I'm right and you're wrong" because that will just achieve nothing at all. I hold my opinion on matters, you have yours, as does every other person. The human race will not be able to coexist as a whole if we do not respect people's opinions on things though, we have to listen to both sides of the story even if one side sounds more illogical than the other. And classing all people's from one religion/area/whatever as being "nut jobs" will not help either as just because one group of people from one religion holds a strong view on one matter does not mean that everyone else in that same religion holds the same view.

I'm going off track here so to sum things up into one simple line - One person has one view, another has another view, there is no point in ripping each others throats out about a matter and pushing them under the rug just because they don't see eye to eye.

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (AlexGTAGamer @ Tuesday, May 15 2012, 18:08)

What I am getting from all of this is that you see religion as being like a leper, simply push it to one side and ignore it, don't go anywhere near it, and if you do go near to it you're mental.

well then, you've got the wrong idea.
I never said that people who go near religion are "mental." I never hinted that.

otherwise I acknowledged that religion has had a place in the world.
and there's nothing wrong with spirituality.

but it needs to be a personal thing.
in the family. in the home.

it doesn't really fit within the discussion of medical science, astronomy, or politics.

QUOTE

classing all people's from one religion/area/whatever as being "nut jobs"

I didn't classify anyone as a nutjob.
nutjobs earn their title. being religious doesn't make you a nutjob. being an atheist doesn't make you immune to being a nutjob

but that's not what I'm saying at all.
I respect people's personal beliefs. in the sense that I don't call that out or use it against them at random.

but we are here, on a forum, discussing an open topic in which the point is to put forth one's beliefs and debate what follows.
just because I feel this way about religion in principle doesn't mean I have no manners and no respect.

I wouldn't be talking this way to a religious person's face without warrant.
you have to recognize the distinction between public discourse and personal tolerance.

I'm not saying that we should eradicate religious people or outlaw religion or anything that you may or may not be ready to accuse me of.
but religious beliefs and the people who espouse them must understand that - until their personal beliefs can be proven objectively - they have no basis for using them to try and shape the worldview of any other person. how you raise your children is your business, everything else is hands-off.

QUOTE

just because one group of people from one religion holds a strong view on one matter does not mean that everyone else in that same religion holds the same view.

and TA-DA!
you have done it. right there. you have just given my side of the argument a huge endorsement.

the fact that there are SO many religions with SO many sects and SO many inconsistencies and petty disagreements over the rules and interpretations is virtually the PROOF that religion is a farce. it is so obviously man made, how could anyone reasonably think otherwise? it is so completely absurd.

religion is exactly what you would expect of man-made constructs.
there's thousands of brands.
none of them are compatible.
all of them think they are infallibly and unquestionably correct.
and STILL members of these very faiths go about their lives constantly picking and choosing which tenets to adhere to and which to ignore.

now... either just ONE of these thousands of religions and their choice of rules got it right, in which case lucky guess...
or... all of these religions are correct, which is of course impossible according to them...
or... all of these religions are wrong.

what is more plausible; that a woman gave birth to the son of god?
or that an illiterate Jewish woman told a lie?

it's just silly to subject yourself to something which you cannot possibly hope to know or prove.
I don't understand why anyone needs it.

QUOTE

there is no point in ripping each others throats out about a matter and pushing them under the rug just because they don't see eye to eye.

I agree.

I had no intention of ripping out anyone's throat.