[Alazone]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 04:38)

QUOTE (Alazone @ Wednesday, May 2 2012, 23:34) QUOTE (Rown @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 02:08) If there's a flaw to socialism it's the same flaw found in most societal systems, which is the belief in its own perfection. No system is "perfect" and therefore cannot be applied universally. Education of one sort doesn't educate everyone. We need to find a way to let more systems operate simultaneously. Beyond the debates about charter, home, private, and public schools into creative apprenticeships and greater on-the-job training and whatever else emerges. This monoculture is killing us. Rown I absolutely agree. Let the states decide what they want to do, in terms of public education. The states should be responsible for the education within the state, not the federal government. Why, though? Why should places about 50 miles south of where I am now (DC/Northern Virginia) be educating kids that evolution and science is fake, but 50 miles north of me be teaching kids that science is the answer to everything? That's not how you educate a population. Universal education is the only answer.

Not exactly, we can make a certain list of guidelines for these public education schools to have. I think if we made regulations, we could have inspectors from the state visit these schools to make sure they are abiding by these guidelines. Which at the same time, would create more American jobs.

[HydraulicWaRiOr]

As a Communist myself, I would have to disagree with you. Most republicans and government shun Socialism at the nearest mention. My Grandma even took a test after she immigrated, and if you admit that you are in favor of Socialism, you are not permitted citizenship in the United States. Luckily for me, I was born here, so they couldn't really revoke my citizenship because of mere opinion.

There's always a shiver when someone hears the word Socialism in this place, but it is mostly invoked by the propaganda of the Capitalists, nothing more. Socialism and Capitalism are very much the same, not in the way that things work, but what comes out of it. Socialism promotes an idea of economic equality along with an anti-Christian policy, which is one of the parts I like best.

As for Obey, it is nothing more than a skater company that promotes the idea of a somewhat rebellious propaganda ideal, which is one of the parts that helps sales.

[Supreme]

[Alazone]

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 05:28)

As a Communist myself, I would have to disagree with you. Most republicans and government shun Socialism at the nearest mention. My Grandma even took a test after she immigrated, and if you admit that you are in favor of Socialism, you are not permitted citizenship in the United States. Luckily for me, I was born here, so they couldn't really revoke my citizenship because of mere opinion. There's always a shiver when someone hears the word Socialism in this place, but it is mostly invoked by the propaganda of the Capitalists, nothing more. Socialism and Capitalism are very much the same, not in the way that things work, but what comes out of it. Socialism promotes an idea of economic equality along with an anti-Christian policy, which is one of the parts I like best. As for Obey, it is nothing more than a skater company that promotes the idea of a somewhat rebellious propaganda ideal, which is one of the parts that helps sales. [Supreme]

You've got to admit, when your grandmother was around, adolf hitler was still around. Who was also very leftist and had socialist ideas and opinions. So you can't blame the government. It's not like they give a f*ck about your political views. They just wanted to make sure America was safe, as a country - The economy could have drastically changed if someone who was a radical socialist started a revolt or something.

If you don't mind me asking, what country do you originate from?

[HydraulicWaRiOr]

QUOTE (Alazone @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 05:35)

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 05:28) As a Communist myself, I would have to disagree with you. Most republicans and government shun Socialism at the nearest mention. My Grandma even took a test after she immigrated, and if you admit that you are in favor of Socialism, you are not permitted citizenship in the United States. Luckily for me, I was born here, so they couldn't really revoke my citizenship because of mere opinion. There's always a shiver when someone hears the word Socialism in this place, but it is mostly invoked by the propaganda of the Capitalists, nothing more. Socialism and Capitalism are very much the same, not in the way that things work, but what comes out of it. Socialism promotes an idea of economic equality along with an anti-Christian policy, which is one of the parts I like best. As for Obey, it is nothing more than a skater company that promotes the idea of a somewhat rebellious propaganda ideal, which is one of the parts that helps sales. [Supreme] You've got to admit, when your grandmother was around, adolf hitler was still around. Who was also very leftist and had socialist ideas and opinions. So you can't blame the government. It's not like they give a f*ck about your political views. They just wanted to make sure America was safe, as a country - The economy could have drastically changed if someone who was a radical socialist started a revolt or something. If you don't mind me asking, what country do you originate from?

My grandmother was born in 1956 and came here in the mid-70s...

She didn't even apply for citizenship until the late 80s.

And I'm Mexican.

[Supreme]

[Alazone]

Well, I guess that's an invalid counterargument.

[The General]

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 00:44)

My grandmother was born in 1956 and came here in the mid-70s...

Wait, how old are you? You're grandmother hasn't even turned 60 yet.

[HydraulicWaRiOr]

QUOTE (The General @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 06:24)

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 00:44) My grandmother was born in 1956 and came here in the mid-70s... Wait, how old are you? You're grandmother hasn't even turned 60 yet.

I'm 18 now, I turned a week ago.

[Supreme]

[spaceeinstein]

QUOTE (Alazone @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 00:35)

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 05:28) ...My Grandma even took a test after she immigrated, and if you admit that you are in favor of Socialism, you are not permitted citizenship in the United States... ...adolf hitler was still around. Who was also very leftist and had socialist ideas and opinions...

I thought that question was there because of the Soviet Union/Cold War, not because of Hitler...

[Alazone]

QUOTE (spaceeinstein @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 08:26)

QUOTE (Alazone @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 00:35) QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 05:28) ...My Grandma even took a test after she immigrated, and if you admit that you are in favor of Socialism, you are not permitted citizenship in the United States... ...adolf hitler was still around. Who was also very leftist and had socialist ideas and opinions... I thought that question was there because of the Soviet Union/Cold War, not because of Hitler...

I assumed his grandmother came to the U.S in the early 40's. The cold war situation makes sense if she moved here in the 80's.

[Irviding]

Hitler was not a leftist...

[Icarus]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 14:24)

Hitler was not a leftist...

My guess is that people think that because Hitler was the head of the National Socialist party, they think he was a socialist and hence, a leftist.

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Icarus @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 23:26)

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 14:24) Hitler was not a leftist... My guess is that people think that because Hitler was the head of the National Socialist party, they think he was a socialist and hence, a leftist.

You can be right-wing and socialist- you just can't capitalise the S. "Socialism" in the most general sense is so wide and disparate as to cover many of the policies implemented by the Nazi party in Germany, and even before. For example, Bismark was regarded as socialist (well, a State socialist) by some because his implementation of the earliest vestiges of the German welfare state, including compulsory insurance to compensate workers from accident or injury. But "socialist policies" does not equal "socialist" which does not equal "Socialist", if you get my drift.

This post has been edited by sivispacem on Thursday, May 3 2012, 22:51

[Icarus]

Oh no, I get that. One of my best friends is a political science major and she was telling me about this. I was more using the very basic interpretation that people have that socialism is a left-wing ideology and that is has no right-wing component - they're treating it more as an absolute with no degree of variability.

So when people see the word Socialist from National Socialist, I imagine some people are quick to think leftist.

[Alazone]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 20:24)

Hitler was not a leftist...

Actually, his opinions and ideas were. I am not going to say all leftists are satanic murderers but yes; he was leftist..

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/

[Irviding]

That website is sensationalist bullsh*t built by far right wing organizations to distance themselves from Hitler.

The widely accepted reason for the socialist title was simply to attract people to the party. If you looked at his party platform without knowing it was Nazi, you would likely end up over there if your beliefs are somewhat center-right or even centrist. I took a holocaust class two semesters ago and I ended up in the social democrats but a little over half of the section were in the nazi corner.

If you honestly think Hitler was a leftist, you're delusional. He was a fascist, plain and simple. Fascism incorporates elements from both, but in the case of fascism, ownership of state enterprise is not for the benefit of the people as in socialism but for the benefit of the state. The ultra-nationalism of fascism along with its jingoistic policies is why pretty much ever scholar on the face of the earth call Hitler a rightist and put fascism on the far right of the spectrum.

[Alazone]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, May 4 2012, 01:11)

That website is sensationalist bullsh*t built by far right wing organizations to distance themselves from Hitler. The widely accepted reason for the socialist title was simply to attract people to the party. If you looked at his party platform without knowing it was Nazi, you would likely end up over there if your beliefs are somewhat center-right or even centrist. I took a holocaust class two semesters ago and I ended up in the social democrats but a little over half of the section were in the nazi corner. If you honestly think Hitler was a leftist, you're delusional. He was a fascist, plain and simple. Fascism incorporates elements from both, but in the case of fascism, ownership of state enterprise is not for the benefit of the people as in socialism but for the benefit of the state. The ultra-nationalism of fascism along with its jingoistic policies is why pretty much ever scholar on the face of the earth call Hitler a rightist and put fascism on the far right of the spectrum.

Communism is a form of Socialism, which both join at the left side of the spectrum. Calling hitler anything otherwise is bullsh*t. I am not discriminating against other's opinions, I am simply stating a fact determined by history. Although, no one will never know the complete truth. Many Germans were brainwashed into joining the nazi party - which seems like things now. There are political messages in favor for socialism everywhere; especially the public school system.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (Alazone @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 20:29)

QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, May 4 2012, 01:11) That website is sensationalist bullsh*t built by far right wing organizations to distance themselves from Hitler. The widely accepted reason for the socialist title was simply to attract people to the party. If you looked at his party platform without knowing it was Nazi, you would likely end up over there if your beliefs are somewhat center-right or even centrist. I took a holocaust class two semesters ago and I ended up in the social democrats but a little over half of the section were in the nazi corner. If you honestly think Hitler was a leftist, you're delusional. He was a fascist, plain and simple. Fascism incorporates elements from both, but in the case of fascism, ownership of state enterprise is not for the benefit of the people as in socialism but for the benefit of the state. The ultra-nationalism of fascism along with its jingoistic policies is why pretty much ever scholar on the face of the earth call Hitler a rightist and put fascism on the far right of the spectrum. Communism is a form of Socialism, which both join at the left side of the spectrum. Calling hitler anything otherwise is bullsh*t. I am not discriminated against other's opinions, I am simply stating a fact determined by history. Although, no one will never know the complete truth. Many Germans were brainwashed into joining the nazi party; which seems like things now. There are political messages in favor for socialism everywhere; especially the public school system.

... did you just say Hitler was a communist?

Yeah, you just lost about all credibility in this topic.

[Alazone]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, May 4 2012, 01:30)

QUOTE (Alazone @ Thursday, May 3 2012, 20:29) QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, May 4 2012, 01:11) That website is sensationalist bullsh*t built by far right wing organizations to distance themselves from Hitler. The widely accepted reason for the socialist title was simply to attract people to the party. If you looked at his party platform without knowing it was Nazi, you would likely end up over there if your beliefs are somewhat center-right or even centrist. I took a holocaust class two semesters ago and I ended up in the social democrats but a little over half of the section were in the nazi corner. If you honestly think Hitler was a leftist, you're delusional. He was a fascist, plain and simple. Fascism incorporates elements from both, but in the case of fascism, ownership of state enterprise is not for the benefit of the people as in socialism but for the benefit of the state. The ultra-nationalism of fascism along with its jingoistic policies is why pretty much ever scholar on the face of the earth call Hitler a rightist and put fascism on the far right of the spectrum. Communism is a form of Socialism, which both join at the left side of the spectrum. Calling hitler anything otherwise is bullsh*t. I am not discriminated against other's opinions, I am simply stating a fact determined by history. Although, no one will never know the complete truth. Many Germans were brainwashed into joining the nazi party; which seems like things now. There are political messages in favor for socialism everywhere; especially the public school system. ... did you just say Hitler was a communist? Yeah, you just lost about all credibility in this topic.

That was a mistake on my part, I was getting the history of Adolf Hitler mixed up with Fidel Castro. I apologize, that was just a slight misunderstanding.

In some ways I agree with you, in other ways I disagree.

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Alazone @ Friday, May 4 2012, 02:32)

That was a mistake on my part, I was getting the history of Adolf Hitler mixed up with Fidel Castro. I apologize, that was just a slight misunderstanding.

Can I just ask, how? One is a Cuban Communist, born in 1926, who is still alive and is generally relatively benign as far as despots go. And the other was an Austrian Fascist born in 1889, died in 1945, and (largely) responsible for the largest act of Genocide in modern times. Quite literally the ONLY similarity they have is that they both have (or had) moustaches, although Castro's is considerably larger and considerably more attached to a beard.

[Leftcoast]

QUOTE

Can I just ask, how? One is a Cuban Communist, born in 1926, who is still alive and is generally relatively benign as far as despots go. And the other was an Austrian Fascist born in 1889, died in 1945, and (largely) responsible for the largest act of Genocide in modern times. Quite literally the ONLY similarity they have is that they both have (or had) moustaches, although Castro's is considerably larger and considerably more attached to a beard.

Agreed, that's like getting Marlene Dietrich confused with Jennifer Lopez.

QUOTE

Communism is a form of Socialism, which both join at the left side of the spectrum. Calling hitler anything otherwise is bullsh*t. I am not discriminated against other's opinions, I am simply stating a fact determined by history. Although, no one will never know the complete truth. Many Germans were brainwashed into joining the nazi party; which seems like things now. There are political messages in favor for socialism everywhere; especially the public school system.

I'm pretty sure he did what ever got him more power and could care less about the ideologies of different political views.