[oysterbarron]

1 the fact that once email is being monitored and stored if the system is ever broke into then accounts for most of the individuals online accounts are going to be at risk.

2 there will be nothing stopping them using your history against you even if you were using services innocently. Say in ten years i get acused of a violent crime i didnt commit they could use the fact albeit my use of gtaforums was completly innocent agaist me and say he had an obbsession with violent videogames.

As far as im aware the government can allready monitor web use by obtaining a warrant of anyone that they susspect of crimes this will be a blanket law that allows them to do it with everyone without a warrant.

Once the government has the data theres no garantee what they will do with it.
This is why laws were brought in to protect peoples normal mail why the government thinks it has the right to retrieve our internet mail is beyond me

[Viperman]

But fundamentally it will not affect the way I personally lead my life, or decisions I make.

They can have more power/control for all I care. It won't change sh*t.

Freedom is a state of mind.

[Mike Tequeli]

QUOTE (Viperman @ Monday, Apr 9 2012, 10:59)

QUOTE (Waddy @ Saturday, Apr 7 2012, 21:25) If you have nothing to hide then whats the issue? it makes the country a safer place to be. I have no problem. Its funny how you think the government will be checking your email every day! Only got 5 posts in, but this sums it up.

Are you serious? That's the sh*ttiest argument ever.

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (oysterbarron @ Monday, Apr 9 2012, 14:13)

1 the fact that once email is being monitored and stored if the system is ever broke into then accounts for most of the individuals online accounts are going to be at risk. 2 there will be nothing stopping them using your history against you even if you were using services innocently. Say in ten years i get acused of a violent crime i didnt commit they could use the fact albeit my use of gtaforums was completly innocent agaist me and say he had an obbsession with violent videogames. As far as im aware the government can allready monitor web use by obtaining a warrant of anyone that they susspect of crimes this will be a blanket law that allows them to do it with everyone without a warrant. Once the government has the data theres no garantee what they will do with it. This is why laws were brought in to protect peoples normal mail why the government thinks it has the right to retrieve our internet mail is beyond me

As I said previously, you really should read something other than the sensationalism. Because...

1) This info is already held and stored for a year. You seem to have grabbed very aggressively at this idea that additional information is being stored, which is all very well and good but I'm afraid it's entirely untrue. Nothing is due to be monitored or stored that isn't already stored in a far less secure place than in the security service's systems. Whats more, why do you not seem at all concerned that your ISP is storing all this data on you, yet seem incredibly concerned that a group of individuals who are bound by law and public oversight to operate within certain permitted boundaries are going to get access to it? It's really counter-intuitive.

2) Actually, there will. Exactly the same safeguards will exist under the potential future system as do under the current one. Access to basic communication details is still going to be legally restricted to the police and intelligence service. Access to content is still going to be largely limited to SOCA and GCHQ, and even then they require a warrant. In your given circumstance, they would be able to identify that you went on this website, but no information on what you posted. Communication, not content- that's how the new legislation will work.

The intelligence services (very different from the government) can monitor retrospective communication data from warrants. There's not even any real suggestion that these powers can be used by the police unless data recovered is handed over by the intelligence services. Also, there's nothing being included in this bill which isn't already obtainable without a warrant, so I'm really not sure what point your making. Again, communications versus content.

The "government" won't possess this data. The intelligence services will. And you should look into the legislation that governs their accountability and operation. I think you'll find there's a massive number of guarantees about what they will and won't do with it because there are very stringent restrictions on the use of any data collected without prior approval from the Home Office. But, again, let's not let reality get in the way of absurdism.

As I've already made quite clear, they can't. They'll be able to see who they're being sent to, but not any content. It's no different from being able to read the contact details on the front of a letter, but not the content inside. This is no different; so tell me, in principal, exactly how objectionable is it?

[Typhus]

QUOTE (Viperman @ Monday, Apr 9 2012, 13:19)

But fundamentally it will not affect the way I personally lead my life, or decisions I make. They can have more power/control for all I care. It won't change sh*t. Freedom is a state of mind.

I disagree, freedom is almost tangible. It's the ability to speak out without fear of reprisals, the ability to offend others and be offended in turn and it's also about the sharing of power, so no one is completely unaccountable.
Freedom is a real thing, not some woolly philosophical concept you can argue away.

I don't believe these laws will end that freedom, but I believe they represent an unpleasant trend of sacrificing some liberties to men who have not proven themselves worthy to ask that sacrifice.

A real leader can makes laws like this, which aren't too fascistic anyway, and he can be trusted with that power. Our current leadership has given us very little in the way of incentive to support them. They have constantly appeared out-of-touch and dragged their feet on issues the working classes feel passionately about.

They have pleased neither liberals nor conservatives and as such deserve the suspicion which is levied against them.

[Algonquin Bridge]

Honestly, I find this law rather superfluous. I think that the current system (as underlined by a European Directive from...2009, was it?) is sufficient.

If the rozzers are suspicious, have built up a case and filed for a warrant to access the data (not just what websites you've visited/phone calls you made, but the contents of them), then I think that's fair play. They're confident enough to have begun a proper investigation into the matter. But...on-demand access? It smacks of the government being distrustful of the electorate.

I find that it assumes that every citizen could be a "threat to national security"; otherwise, why the need to instantly access the data (okay, not the in-depth stuff, but still the call/internet history) on any person in the country? It's all well and good saying "Oh, it's okay if you've nothing to hide." But such a proposition makes the assumption that everyone in the country is a suspect. Why should this assumption exist and be forced upon everyone? Surely the current system of "Let's build up a case guv, then get a warrant so we can grill the ISPs", is sufficient if the average citizen has "nothing to hide."

Frankly, I could rattle off on how I think this is another thing to throw into the "Politics of Fear" argument; but that'd make me sound like a rambling liberal pansy with a crippling fear of authority (that is, if I haven't made that impression already). I just find it a bit suspect when two major parties try and bring in this kind of legislation; legislation they rallied against when the Labour government tried the same thing years ago. Quite the volte-face, if I do say.

[oysterbarron]

What im saying is its just not needed at all i havent heard a decent reason from the government why they need these extra powers when the people that need access to it allready have access to it. Exspecially when they wont have access to the infomation contained within the e-mail how is this going to help in the slightest?

[Butters 2011]

Is it only me that has noticed alot more attention been focused on 'terrorists' asof lately? Only the other week did I read some story about terrorists using online gaming to communicate with each other...for example, playing COD to 'mask' the line between reality and fantasy.

Funny, also, how this is the same Government who allow freedom to well-known terrorists, and always put 'Human Right's before anything else. Seems contradictory to me...allow a terrorist to walk free based on his Human Rights, but then bring in laws that allow groups to monitor everything?

I've posted my stance already in this topic, and I know the finer details of this, so I'm not sensationalising here...

[Kent Traffic Cop]

QUOTE (Waddy @ Saturday, Apr 7 2012, 22:03)

The only possible way this could ever affect you is that if you became known to the police/authorities. They just cant go snooping on anybody, a warrant must be applied for to see the data. The UK is already the most CCTV'd place in Europe I believe, theres not many places you can go without them knowing (If they wanted to know) This is just a natural progression in in the fight against crime.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

A traditional warrant is obvious - there's a big mark on your front door where someone has battered the f*ck out of it with the big red key. Also, your house will be turned upside down.

Unless you are a super-geek, you would never be able to tell if someone has hacked into your e-mails, etc. Either way, it's not difficult to get a warrant nowadays. The police have been cracking into Facebook accounts for years without anyone knowing it - and before anyone asks, they can do it without that "Someone tried to log into your account" bullsh*t appearing when you log in. People are so damn naive...


The issue isn't so much "What have you got to hide" but rather it being "Another step closer to total control." How long is it before they start shutting down TV stations that don't tow the political line?

What about travel? They've already started chipping passports. Police and other 999 vehicles are now fitted with "Black Boxes" (think commerical aircraft) and the government has already suggested that every citizen has one installed in their private vehicles. Everytime you hit 31mph in a 30 zone - ticket. Every journey you make - recorded.

1984 hasn't been avoided, it's just been delayed.

[GTA_stu]

QUOTE (Kent Traffic Cop @ Tuesday, Apr 10 2012, 01:22)

1984 hasn't been avoided, it's just been delayed.

You can't avoid 1984, it's gonna happen some day. Wait a minute... *checks calender* DEAR GOD! 2012. They did it, Damn them! Damn them to hell!

sensationalism with a capital crazy

[oysterbarron]

This government is obviously blisfully unaware there country almost fell apart last august what are they worried about internet laws. The world around them is falling apart i they cant think of anything else apart from g8ving people more reasons to mistrust them! I tell you next time the riots happen the people will take parliment away from the politicians. Civil war is brewing and they are none the wiser.

[finn4life]

QUOTE (oysterbarron @ Tuesday, Apr 10 2012, 14:21)

This government is obviously blisfully unaware there country almost fell apart last august what are they worried about internet laws. The world around them is falling apart i they cant think of anything else apart from g8ving people more reasons to mistrust them! I tell you next time the riots happen the people will take parliment away from the politicians. Civil war is brewing and they are none the wiser.

They can see whats coming, people are not totally oblivious to absolutely everything.
That is whether or not a civil war is brewing, and if there was, this law could actually help stop planned protests, so it is in fact not a pointless law and they have bigger things to worry about.

[vertical limit]

Does anybody know when it will take place?

[oysterbarron]

Not sure when. all it will need is a catalyist. Whatched a program on tv kast night that followed the protests and riots last time. The feeling on the street is that it will happen again and this time maybe normal people will be out aswell.

[GTAIndonesia]

Just hope they don't go here.

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Kent Traffic Cop @ Tuesday, Apr 10 2012, 02:22)

Unless you are a super-geek, you would never be able to tell if someone has hacked into your e-mails, etc. Either way, it's not difficult to get a warrant nowadays. The police have been cracking into Facebook accounts for years without anyone knowing it - and before anyone asks, they can do it without that "Someone tried to log into your account" bullsh*t appearing when you log in. People are so damn naive...

The warrant system for obtaining communications data under RIPA is rather different to that for obtaining warrants for search/seizure of property. It's the Home Office who grant the warrants, and reasonable grounds need to be established. But as your ex-Plod, I imagine you knew that anyway.

[Viperman]

QUOTE (Mike Tequeli @ Monday, Apr 9 2012, 19:47)

QUOTE (Viperman @ Monday, Apr 9 2012, 10:59) QUOTE (Waddy @ Saturday, Apr 7 2012, 21:25) If you have nothing to hide then whats the issue? it makes the country a safer place to be. I have no problem. Its funny how you think the government will be checking your email every day! Only got 5 posts in, but this sums it up. Are you serious? That's the sh*ttiest argument ever.

Very much so buddy. It is not an argument, its an opinion. It won't affect 99% of the public in there day to day lives. I'm not saying its morally right. But i completely fail to see why there is such a controversy over something that doesnt affect the way you live.

QUOTE

I disagree, freedom is almost tangible. It's the ability to speak out without fear of reprisals, the ability to offend others and be offended in turn and it's also about the sharing of power, so no one is completely unaccountable. Freedom is a real thing, not some woolly philosophical concept you can argue away.

I'm afraid ill agree to disagree. I'm sorry but I fail to see the logic in that. I.can say and speak whatever I feel, without worry? I mean, I would walk through a city centre smoking a reefer, talking cocaine with mates and it Wouldnt bother me. I genuinely feel free. Eat what I want, drink what I want, think what I want.

Anyways, I might be completely missing the point. But regardless if I am, it won't affect me. I'm a free man.

This post has been edited by Viperman on Tuesday, Apr 10 2012, 09:40

[Butters 2011]

QUOTE (vertical limit @ Tuesday, Apr 10 2012, 04:07)

Does anybody know when it will take place?

Very soon, apparently. She wants it rolled out as soon as possible.

@Kent Traffic Cop...you really being serious about them censoring TV networks? How did we go from talking about them monitoring web conversations to them shutting down TV networks...and even to the conversation about 1984?

@Viperman...free man? Come back and say this when the law is finally brought in that bans smoking from ANY outdoor place, or the one where it bans us from smoking from inside our own vehicles. To abide by laws in this world means we are not 'free', as such.

About the riots subject, do you think it's a matter of when it will happen again, or if? If this Government keeps going the way they are, then it won't be too long before the 'Lost Generation' bring the country to chaos again.

[GTAIndonesia]

Just another SOPA?

[Gareth Croke]

QUOTE (Butters 2011 @ Tuesday, Apr 10 2012, 12:41)

QUOTE (vertical limit @ Tuesday, Apr 10 2012, 04:07) Does anybody know when it will take place? Very soon, apparently. She wants it rolled out as soon as possible.

Not if the coalition has anything to do with it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17662804

This part being the most stand out part of the report.

QUOTE

Mr Clegg has insisted any enhanced powers, plans for which could be included in next month's Queen's Speech, must be subject to extensive study by MPs before becoming law. On Sunday, Lib Dem President Tim Farron said the Lib Dems were "prepared to kill" the plans "if it comes down to it" while suggesting he would be surprised if the final plans looked "anything like the press reports we have had".

To be honest as I surmised earlier in this topic, I doubt it if ever would come to fruition, there's probably EU law which prevent it.