[Linki]

Between Niko and Darko, who was really worse?

Darko:
"Where am I? What is this place? You say I ruined you? You were always a killer! I just helped you see that!"

Indeed, it is told throughout IV's story that Niko committed many atrocities during the war. He seemed to be the one of the squad who would go out of his way to kill.

It took getting betrayed and having his friends die to make him see this (that he was killing for the wrong reasons), but then he went on and continued his immoral ways for different reasons (to survive). Then he got betrayed again and left for Liberty City to fight a different kind of war. He then gets betrayed again and has someone close to him die.

Perhaps Niko was a born killer? I'm sure he gets caught up in something else after IV, but that's another story. Let's move on to Darko Brevic.

He was a close friend of Niko who grew up with him and obviously knows quite a bit about him. He also got caught up in the war and was apart of the same squad as Niko. Apparently Darko's other friends, his "f*cking neighbours", were killed by Goran and his guys. The reason for their deaths isn't stated directly, but it is easy to assume that it was because of war related reasons, like they were connected to the enemy somehow and were seen as "traitors".

This angered Darko and showed everything he believed in was full of lies. Having his eyes opened like this probably made him see the terrible things Niko and the squad were doing. He obviously didn't support them anymore and thus, betrayed them for money, perhaps as a way to separate himself from them.

When he gave up his friends, I'm not sure he knew they were going to get killed. Because it seems he found out later they got killed and the guilt destroyed him. Then who knows what happened to him after that. It seems he became a junkie?

So, seeing it from Darko's perspective, who was really in the wrong?

This post has been edited by Linki on Monday, Feb 6 2012, 06:49

[Tycek]

During domestic wars like Yugoslavian wars there is no right and wrong side. Learning something in that topic can really help you understand the whole situation.
Niko's religion was an orthodoxy and he was a Serb, like Darko and other members of this squad. Darko probably lived in place inhabited mostly by bosnians who are muslims. Niko and his squad killed them and burned their village and Darko as a repayment (he lived along those bosnians so he treated them like friends) lead whole squad into a trap made by other bosnian soldiers.

You can't say that either Niko or Darko were wrong, because in fact this whole war was wrong. And in wars like this you can't point and say they are the good guys and they are bad. In wars like that it only matters who lost less friends.

This post has been edited by Tycek on Monday, Feb 6 2012, 21:33

[Branimir202]

Great thread btw, always found the deeper messages of the game to be interesting. Niko could definitely be seen as a bit of a hypocrite which Darko also calls him out about. One thing I noticed about him is that he follows orders just like a soldier would. In war if you are given an order, you do it and have to cast your own judgement aside. He merely does what he is told and it seemed like he had no interest in the actual consequences or the job itself like the target was just another road block.

I think he seemed a bit gullible or perhaps just like his line of morals was blurred. There are a few times he spares a few people but for the most part he has no hesitation with killing even when he is warned of risks. In a few instances when someone told him about something they needed taken care of or a person that was giving them trouble- it seemed like killing was the first thing that came to his mind. Though that could just be the mentality of Liberty City- kill or be killed.

Just by seeing how he acted in Liberty City, he was probably the same way during the war. Wasn't interested in what was "right" or "wrong" simply acting under the influence of whoever gave him the orders. Just listen to his taunting while you're in a shoot out, it almost seems like he's enjoying it or like it's this weird release for him. Those taunts aren't meant to be taken seriously but they are a slight look at the real Niko imo. A completely different person from the guy who wanted to get away from the violence that haunted his past at the beginning of the story. Part of it seemed like he had this denial and didn't want to come to terms with being responsible for the results of what he does.



I always took the ending to mean when you lived the way he did, karma comes back to haunt you. Like in a he got some of what he dished out sort of way. Only not directly to him but someone close to him


All of the above are what make him such a great character though

This post has been edited by Branimir202 on Monday, Feb 6 2012, 10:22

[Linki]

Wow, fantastic posts people. I'm glad there are people in the forums who want to talk about things like this.

Niko is such a brilliant character that even 4 years on we're stilling finding out insights. An interesting thing you touched upon Branimir202, was the "real Niko" we see during shootouts. I find that very intriguing.

Also, anyone notice how Darko was really the only character in a cutscene to "challenge" Niko? How he knew what buttons to press and how Niko exploded when he said "How much do you charge to kill someone"? Darko and Niko are actually almost identical in looks and in name, voice, mannerisms etc.

[Hydro_PlayboyX]

darko betrayed his unit during a war, he stabbed them in a back, but niko only follows orders and he wouldnt kill a friend

[CrowBarZ]

It's not the case of "Whose the bad guy" as much as it is "Whose the worst guy". Darko is the one who got the ball rolling. Niko basically hopped on top of that rock and rode it all the way back to Darko (metaphorically speaking). The other killings had nothing in relevance with Darko. In case you didn't really pay attention to the story line you would know that the only reason why Niko went to Libery City was to find Florian, which he thought was the traitor. He probably would have moved away and went on a search for Darko in Europe and Switzerland. The only reason why Niko started killing was because he got drawn into it after doing work for Vlad. So I can't really say who's the worst guy. I would have to say Darko, but it's purely a matter of opinion.

[uramet]

- SPOILERS -

Fanastic read

I think Branimir202 hit's the nail on the head. The world isn't polarised in black and white but in many shades of grey. So many videogames have you play as 'The good guy' and as long as that's made clear it's fine to go around killing 'The bad guy/s', The great thing with Darko and gtaiv as a whole is that it never tries to portray right from wrong, everything has consequence.

Ivan, being allowed to spare him was a shock in itself, I mean this is a game franchise where you go around killing people and suddenly it gives you the choice to spare someones life!

Vlad, slept with Mallorie maybe, so what? Roman goes to massionette 9 and get's up to goodness knows what. Vlad is just a debt collecter, by nature not nice people but they're just doing a job. For me as a player to kill Vlad it felt 'off' but for Niko it made sense. Incidently whenever I playthrough the game and come across the flashing circle execution thing I make a point of using anything other than a handgun to kill the person quickly and avoid the sensationalised cutscene, in my mind that is what Niko would do.

By the time you find that special someone killing them is meaningless, avenge 12 peoples lives? check the in-game kill stats, chances are their in triple digits. Darko calls Niko out on this and it's a brilliant moment.

When I first played the game I chose Deal with no foresight to the consequences, by that point I was playing Niko in carachter, that is to say, I was playing Niko as I thought he himself would behave. I expected Dimitri to betray him that was a given but revenge didn't mean anything after Darko. In the event Niko lost his cousin, his cousins flat and cab buisness, He had the best part of a million dollars with nothing to spend it on. He came to Liberty with nothing and would end up with even less. It takes some balls to create a carachter like Niko rather than pander to the 'I'm the man' player carachters many videogames throw at you with a happy ending.

Anyways, The one thing that really got me..

The Russian clothes shop

I've never fought in a war, I've never so much as held a firearm. However during the Yugoslav wars I did voluntary work for an International aid charity, the work mainly involved filling air tight barrels with food supplies, we also sent books (a lot of religious stuff), in addition we sent donated clothes. What stood out about the clothes we packaged was that the items consisted of yesteryears fashions and trends, you'd have shell suits, premier football tops from championships long past, grubby nike 'air' trainers well past it and garish acid house hooded tops. Entering the Russian clothes shop was like returning to that workplace, proper back of the throat stuff.

I'll stop now, Don't normally talk this much.

[thejorens]

At first when he arrived in Liberty city he tried to get a fresh start.
Before he was being betrayed by his employers and people he considered (but who weren`t) his family.
When he came to LC he was full of hope, his cousin, who said to be a rich dude with women cars houses and parties, what he found was very different.
That might have been reason number 1 why he gave up on the fresh start.
Then come loansharks and mobsters, who make him sick, who call him "Peasant" and whatnot. Up to this point he has gotten in so much anger and he basically explodes, starts killing again and realises that this has set the tone for the rest of his life in LC. He becomes even more angry and unhappy with himself.
Then he is made to kill Faustin and gets betrayed, which completely shatters him, he is almost unable to to trust anyone ever again, more anger...
Then comes the DEA bust, more betrayal- more anger blablabla.
Dwayne comes and brings his mood down with his depressive gibbergabber- again, more anger towards himself.
And ETC.
Basically the story is full of points where he gets wound up and he has to release the tension once in a while....
Doesn`t justify what he does but it explains WHY he does what he does....
I think I made myself clear.
No point in spoiler tags because 99.999% of everyone here has played through IV and the 0.001% that hasn`t will still look XD

[acmilano]

That is why i let Darko live for the first time.Thanks to his action something that was a death squad was distroyed and possible suffering of other civilian was stopped.Things like Darko describe did happened during the war a lot,people with wrong religion would dissapear and found dead after the war.That's why i always have a bad feeling when the storyline touches the war;it was a ugly thing and i lost my dad and grandmom back then and situation here never become normal since then in entire country.

[jlamay]

Very interesting thread.

I love reading through threads like this. It really helps me to understand the storyline a litte better.

The part where Niko tells Faustian's wife, when he was in the war, about the squad the cut off the children's hands and where all lined up up against the church wall: was Niko's squad suppose to kill the other squad that did that? Or was Niko suppose to do that to the children? I'm kind of confussed about that part of the storyline.

[Linki]

I'm sorry to hear about your losses acmilano. And uramet, thanks for the read. Feel free to talk as much you want

[Linki]

QUOTE (jlamay @ Monday, Feb 6 2012, 21:47)

Very interesting thread. I love reading through threads like this. It really helps me to understand the storyline a litte better. The part where Niko tells Faustian's wife, when he was in the war, about the squad the cut off the children's hands and where all lined up up against the church wall: was Niko's squad suppose to kill the other squad that did that? Or was Niko suppose to do that to the children? I'm kind of confussed about that part of the storyline.

Sorry for the double post, just wanted to answer this:

I do believe it was Niko who did it, because after he says it he says "The creature who did this doesn't have a soul" and the creature is assumed to be him.

[jlamay]

Will they get you for double posting to answer someone's question as of mine, Linki?

Thanks for the answer, Linki. I always thought Niko was talking about the other squad who did that and calling them a "Souless Creature,' but I did wonder if Niko was talking about himself as well. I always thought that Niko saw himself as a "Souless Creature" because of the war and maybe even things he did in LC made him feel that way.

[Tycek]

Niko was talking about himself in that cutscene (Rigged to Blow).

It was probably during of Croatian War of Independence (91-95), because Niko is talking about church.
Note that he was 13-17 years old then.

[acmilano]

QUOTE (Linki @ Monday, Feb 6 2012, 21:47)

I'm sorry to hear about your losses acmilano. And uramet, thanks for the read. Feel free to talk as much you want

Thanks man,and for situation that Niko describe to mrs Faustin it sound that Niko just arrive and saw the consequences of what happened,i don't think that R* would trick us to play as someone who did such atrocity.

[Chukkles]

This is GTA, we always play a bad guy.
How do you reason the mass killing of innocent civilians and cops?

[Linki]

QUOTE (Chukkles @ Wednesday, Feb 8 2012, 06:43)

This is GTA, we always play a bad guy. How do you reason the mass killing of innocent civilians and cops?

Technically, those deaths aren't counted into the story.

[Blazevski12]

Niko is a professional killer with a soft heart !.

[CrowBarZ]

QUOTE (Chukkles @ Wednesday, Feb 8 2012, 06:43)

This is GTA, we always play a bad guy. How do you reason the mass killing of innocent civilians and cops?

I went played through the entire GTA IV storyline without "mass killing" or just plain out killing and Pedestrian or Cop without a good reason, and by that I mean missions. I didn't even touch random peds or cops outside missions. Your argument is invalid.

[turvus2]

QUOTE (Linki @ Monday, Feb 6 2012, 06:21)

Between Niko and Darko, who was really worse? Having his eyes opened like this probably made him see the terrible things Niko and the squad were doing. He obviously didn't support them anymore and thus, betrayed them for money, perhaps as a way to separate himself from them. When he gave up his friends, I'm not sure he knew they were going to get killed. Because it seems he found out later they got killed and the guilt destroyed him. Then who knows what happened to him after that. It seems he became a junkie? So, seeing it from Darko's perspective, who was really in the wrong?

May contain SPOILERS!


I like where you are going with your post, but you are overcomplicating things.

Darko betrayed his friends for blow. He had addiction already at the point of "selling out"! - thats a fact, listen to the cutscene. Betrayal is not surprising either - junkies are known to do the most disgusting things to get hands on drugs. Simple as that. I dont think he had illumination or even had a right to rat on his friends to die. That being said, his action had its guilt effects, but then again he got what he deserved.

Besides, betraying friends cant be excused under any reasoning: having open eyes, trying to separate or not, thats as low as one can get (thats the whole morale GTA IV story - biggest antagonist is snake backstabbing piece of sh*t Dmitri).
How can that person be better than Nico, who is the one who got betrayed, moreover spent 10 years of his life to pay back for his friends?!

This post has been edited by turvus2 on Sunday, Feb 12 2012, 22:52