GTAKnoweldge, I seriously suggest you just give up. It's evident that you live in some kind of dream world where everyone's your best chum and where despots are cuddly toys. It doesn't do your case any favours. You've also consistently failed to provide any evidence to support your cause from sources other than propaganda videos images. These provide absolutely no evidence to substantiate your cause; in fact, all they do is detract from your argument and make it appear as if it's based on nothing other than rhetoric and obvious fallacies.
If Syria is so peaceful, and the rebels so violent, then why has the AU spend the last month chomping the bit for an intervention on the side of the rebels?
I said Syria was peaceful BEFORE the rebels went in. I was there before this happened. It was peaceful. There never was any protests until these rebels got involved. Everything was fine before. Don't be stupid.
UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY VISITED SYRIA more then a year ago, before all this, you can not say it wasn't peaceful. You should stop.
And at the moment neither side is peaceful. Syria is currently at war with these terrorists. Apart from those i know living inside Damascus, all the other towns have fighting going on around them between rebels and the military.
Do they show you these things in the West? NO.
^Raw footage. No propaganda. No editing.
Conveniently they only show one side of the story, and that's the stuff you know. .
You're the one living in a fantasy world if you think everything you are being told is what is actually happening on the other side of the world where you have never been. But when someone from that area tells you the truth, you disregard it.
THE TRUTH: The army has done some mistakes, but it is NOWHERE near what the rebels are purposely doing. Raping children and women, kidnapping civilians, chopping up their bodies, killing police and soldiers, bombing busy shopping malls, randomly snipering people from rooftops, random shootings and assassinations of famous people....HOW CAN ANYONE SUPPORT THESE TERRORISTS!?
What would your government do if these types of rebels took on the military? Answer this for me.
@Irviding: I want to know what Obama would do if that situation occurred? Assad admitted he was not prepared for this because it wasn't expected. This is why there are mistakes being made. How would the US handle it?
This post has been edited by GTAknowledge on Wednesday, Feb 1 2012, 08:26
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I'm on the train so will keep this brief. I ever said that Syria wasn't peaceful prior to the Arab Spring. But those videos do not provide proof of anything. There's not even any proof that those involved in those videos are actually rebels. And you've still failed to explain the African Union's stance on the issue, as well as all the independent analysis.
Regardless of your claims of a personal relationship with events, you appear no more qualified to discuss these issues than any other layman. The fact you're banging this absurd propaganda drum just goes to show that you've got absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
I'm on the train so will keep this brief. I ever said that Syria wasn't peaceful prior to the Arab Spring. But those videos do not provide proof of anything. There's not even any proof that those involved in those videos are actually rebels. And you've still failed to explain the African Union's stance on the issue, as well as all the independent analysis.
Regardless of your claims of a personal relationship with events, you appear no more qualified to discuss these issues than any other layman. The fact you're banging this absurd propaganda drum just goes to show that you've got absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
So because you don't understand what they are saying in the video, it means they aren't rebels?
If you know an Arabic person, please show them the videos. If they speak Syrian, they will know right away what those in the video are saying and confirm that they are rebels. Also, look at their clothes. They are either rebels OR armed civilians (terrorists) attacking the army.
This stuff is happening daily. The aren't even focused on attacking the army any more. They are randomly killing civilians and trying to cause as much chaos in the country. I wouldn't be surprised if they have tortured and murdered more than 10,000 innocent people at this point. Raw footage of over 50 dead soldiers has been shown on television. They tortured and killed them all and lined them up and threw them of a bridge. These rebels are the most vicious scum on the earth today, and for the West to support them just goes to show they have their own interests in taking over Syria.
AU and other bodies have their own interests with Syria aswell. Don't be stupid and think they actually care for the Syrian people. THEY DON'T. Because if they did, their first priority should be to stop the rebels from the ongoing crimes they are committing (the kidnappings, the murders and the torturing). The fact that they have sided with the African Al-Qaeda linked terrorists shows clearly their intentions for Syria is not of benefit to the Syrian people.
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How do you not realize that it the Syrian army doing the torturing and kidnapping. That's why thousands tried to flee to neighboring Turkey and then gave reports to the journalists about the family and friends taken by Assad's forces. There was a video clip on the news last night of a Syrian man who said everyone was afraid to leave their houses because of army anklets on the rooftops, footage has shown Damascus o be a war zone, despite what you seem to think of it. Stop falling for the governments propaganda an have a look at what's really happening.
How do you not realize that it the Syrian army doing the torturing and kidnapping. That's why thousands tried to flee to neighboring Turkey and then gave reports to the journalists about the family and friends taken by Assad's forces. There was a video clip on the news last night of a Syrian man who said everyone was afraid to leave their houses because of army anklets on the rooftops, footage has shown Damascus o be a war zone, despite what you seem to think of it. Stop falling for the governments propaganda an have a look at what's really happening.
Sigh. .
1. I have said the Army has made some mistakes, numerous times in this thread. They are nowhere near perfect but this is an extreme situation in the country which they admitted they were not prepared for. BUT, the rebels still remain WAY worse because they are purposely doing criminal acts.
2. The Army is torturing or kidnapping ONLY those linked with rebels. I thought the US government passed the NDAA which allows them to basically kidnap, detain and torture anyone deemed to be a terrorist. Why is it ok in the US to arrest people linked to terrorists but not ok in Syria? In Syria, the constitution declares power to eliminate terrorists (in this case the rebels and their armed supporters) in order to maintain peace in the country. Assad is simply following the constitution.
Also note many of the rebels already committed crimes just by crossing the border illegally and bringing in illegal weapons. No country would accept this, and Syria is not different.
3. For those who were arrested and not deemed as terrorists, they were released:
'The amnesty involves those who have peacefully demonstrated, those who have carried and possessed unlicensed weapons and ammunition.'
4. Please show me this said footage. Damascus as i know it is not a war-zone and is peaceful at the moment compared to other cities and towns. There was rebel presence on the outskirt towns, but it took the army only a short time to push them back away. This happened yesterday.
5.
QUOTE
Stop falling for the governments propaganda an have a look at what's really happening.
Can you please show me the assumed propaganda i have fallen for? Are these things considered propaganda by you?:
- Family and close friends living in Syria telling me what is occurring. - Lebanese and other Arabic channels, not linked to the Syrian government, showing interviews and reports. - Raw video of situations. - My personal experience having visited the country and seen how it is governed under Assad.
The only propaganda i can think of would be actual Syrian news/media OR Western media (Both biased to one side of the argument).....which i don't rely on for any information.
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The NDAA doesn't say that dickass, we've been through this over and over. Propaganda videos are not valid sourcing. You are so close minded and wrapped up in your own self righteousness that, to you, no one else can be right.
Let me tell you something - your sourcing is basically "Ive spoken yo someone" or "Ive been there"
Hey I spray to my syrian buddies all the time man. I go there monthly and I see no problems. The outside sources and video are manufactured by the West.
Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? You have no proof, no substantiation, just your word. Furthermore, obama wouldn't have to deal with that situation because we have a right to assemble and protest here.
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Why do you not understand that the rebels, or terrorists as you label them, were peaceful protestors initially. Assad launched a military campaign against free speech turning the protestors into armed rebels.
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QUOTE (OchyGTA @ Wednesday, Feb 1 2012, 12:18)
Why do you not understand that the rebels, or terrorists as you label them, were peaceful protestors initially. Assad launched a military campaign against free speech turning the protestors into armed rebels.
You don't understand, his vague, corrupted and partisan third-hand sources are far better than the hundreds of pages of independent assessment, peer review articles, in-depth analyses and statements issued by non-partisan organisations. Apparently.
Why do you not understand that the rebels, or terrorists as you label them, were peaceful protestors initially. Assad launched a military campaign against free speech turning the protestors into armed rebels.
@Irviding: Oh so Obama would allow people to protest near the White House with weapons in their hands firing into the sky? Because that is what the "peaceful" protests consisted off. Keep living in your shell and believe everything the media tells you. It doesn't bother me, it just makes me laugh.
@OchyGTA: The Army has admitted mistakes in the beginning because something like this was unexpected. The protestors were never peaceful. They were always surrounded by armed people who fired into the sky often which is why the crackdown began. They have released the majority of those protestors who they cracked down on in the beginning and arrested who were proven to actually have been peaceful. Those who were armed will be charged with terrorism.
There was no order to kill the protestors. Assad is simply following the Syrian constitution. Any killings that occurred would be for individual cases where soldiers did mistakes or acted without orders. As has been said, they were not prepared for this situation. Assad has said investigations into unnecessary deaths will begin soon.
At this point, right now, the rebels are Al-Qaeda linked African terrorists and there no longer are ANY peaceful protests. Assad has REPEATEDLY stated that reform and change will occur if the rebels stop their attacks on civilians and soldiers. They refuse to stop because most of them aren't even Syrian and don't care.
@sivispacem: You sound like an old man who has nothing better to do then to write up hundreds of pages worth of stuff which makes no sense.
I'm going to show these posts to my Syrian friends. Should have a good laugh. Ignorant people believe everything they are told.
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QUOTE (GTAknowledge)
sivispacem: You sound like an old man who has nothing better to do then to write up hundreds of pages worth of stuff which makes no sense
I'm going to show these posts to my Syrian friends. Should have a good laugh. Ignorant people believe everything they are told.
Come on, I'm still waiting for answers to what are very simple questions. As well as evidence that demonstrates al-Qaeda complicity on the side if the rebels, an explaination of how you can justify your position in the face of endless contradictory evidence from sources across the spectrum, including but not limited to Janes Defence, Amnesty International, AEI, Chatham House, RUSI, the OIG, the UN Human Rights watchdog, the Arab League, Human Rights Watch, the International Institute for Strategic Studies, Avaaz, StratFor, Centre for Strategic and International Studies and numerous other institutions with far greater personal and personal and professional relationships with the Syrian state and its populace- not to mention a far better understanding of just about every military, geopolitical and technical environment- than you could ever claim to have.
I might demonstrate your conspiratorial delusionism to some of my colleagues. A cheap laugh perhaps, but always good to get a different perspective, even if it's hilarious. Perhaps your views might ebd up getting published in this week's brief? I doubt it though, unless its part of an examination of Syria's information denial and propaganda policy.
This post has been edited by sivispacem on Wednesday, Feb 1 2012, 13:59
sivispacem: You sound like an old man who has nothing better to do then to write up hundreds of pages worth of stuff which makes no sense
I'm going to show these posts to my Syrian friends. Should have a good laugh. Ignorant people believe everything they are told.
Come on, I'm still waiting for answers to what are very simple questions. As well as evidence that demonstrates al-Qaeda complicity on the side if the rebels, an explaination of how you can justify your position in the face of endless contradictory evidence from sources across the spectrum, including but not limited to Janes Defence, Amnesty International, AEI, Chatham House, RUSI, the OIG, the UN Human Rights watchdog, the Arab League, Human Rights Watch, the International Institute for Strategic Studies, Avaaz, StratFor, Centre for Strategic and International Studies and numerous other institutions with far greater personal and personal and professional relationships with the Syrian state and its populace- not to mention a far better understanding of just about every military, geopolitical and technical environment- than you could ever claim to have.
I might demonstrate your conspiratorial delusionism to some of my colleagues. A cheap laugh perhaps, but always good to get a different perspective, even if it's hilarious. Perhaps your views might ebd up getting published in this week's brief? I doubt it though, unless its part of an examination of Syria's information denial and propaganda policy.
Please stop with the rambling. lol.
What are these simple questions you are referring to?
Let me make this clear:
I DO NOT think Assad's handling of the situation was great. And i DO think he could have done a better job as leader and offered reform a little earlier before all this. But i STRONGLY am against the rebels and anyone who supports them because of the disgusting crimes they have committed. Also, i support the reasons why Syrians oppose US interventions, given the situations of Iraq and Libya.
This post has been edited by GTAknowledge on Wednesday, Feb 1 2012, 14:48
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Okay, I'll ask again.
1) How can you maintain a contrarian position in the face of irrefutable evidence from various organisations on all sides (see above) who not only universally know more than you about the strategic and geopolutical landscape than you could ever hope to, but have tangible links to Syria and her citizens from which they are obtaining information that entirely contradicts everything you are saying. Hell, even the Russian authorities aren't claiming that the Syrian military are acting in proportional response to a clear and present threat.
2) What evidence do you have than inexorably links al-Qaeda to the Syrian resistance?
3) What evidence do you have which proves that the majority of those fighting are foreign nationals?
4) In the case of 3, how do you explain the seeming ability of foreign rebel groups to apparently bring large quantities of weapons across a land or sea border into what is for all intents and purposes a police state?
5) How do you explain the large-scale defection of Syrian military personnel to the rebels?
6) How can you claim that Bashir al-Assad is an upstanding and moral leader when he's personally responsible for state-sponsored terrorism, oppression of the Kurdish minority, torture and sumary exevution on an industrial scale and complicity, if not direct political responsibility, for war crimes accounting to near-genocide?
This post has been edited by sivispacem on Wednesday, Feb 1 2012, 15:01
1) How can you maintain a contrarian position in the face of irrefutable evidence from various organisations on all sides (see above) who not only universally know more than you about the strategic and geopolutical landscape than you could ever hope to, but have tangible links to Syria and her citizens from which they are obtaining information that entirely contradicts everything you are saying. Hell, even the Russian authorities aren't claiming that the Syrian military are acting in proportional response to a clear and present threat.
2) What evidence do you have than inexorably links al-Qaeda to the Syrian resistance?
3) What evidence do you have which proves that the majority of those fighting are foreign nationals?
4) In the case of 3, how do you explain the seeming ability of foreign rebel groups to apparently bring large quantities of weapons across a land or sea border into what is for all intents and purposes a police state?
5) How do you explain the large-scale defection of Syrian military personnel to the rebels?
6) How can you claim that Bashir al-Assad is an upstanding and moral leader when he's personally responsible for state-sponsored terrorism, oppression of the Kurdish minority, torture and sumary exevution on an industrial scale and complicity, if not direct political responsibility, for war crimes accounting to near-genocide?
1. I'm am simply forwarding information i have been told by people in the middle of this. I do agree that the Military has been too violent in some circumstances, but you have to understand that their country has been invaded by terrorists. Nobody is safe like they were 1 year ago. Those various organizations are not always accurate. I can't just call my family in Syria liars because some organization released information which contradicts their story. Not everything in the media is wrong. Some i agree with. But a lot of it only shows one side of the story and i am shedding light on the other side.
Also, this is RAW footage of a protest with Anti-Assad protestors and many rebels. The Al-Qaeda flag is clearly seen being waved in the crowd:
3. There are a few hundred Libyan rebels fighting there now. I can not really verify the rest, but when they have interviews on TV, there are black fighters in the background. A lot of them are black. And Syrians are not black. Also my family and friends who experienced these situations have told me they saw people who were "sood - سود" (which is black in Arabic). I will try and find some of these videos and report back about that if i do find some.
4. The Iraqi border and Turkey borders are easily accessible for anyone to enter illegally. Syria is a big country and cannot protect all it's borders.
Also, in Lebanon, the Syrian army has demanded the Lebanese government send troops to the border. Many rebels can't set up camp in Syria so they use Iraq or Lebanon. Example:
I know of Lebanese towns that are close to Syrian towns near the border and they always cross over to have breakfast or lunch on the other side with their friends from the other towns. They are only divided by trees and small rivers which are easily crossed. The only heavily guarded areas are the main roads and highways.
Also, just yesterday, a bunch of rebels coming in from Lebanon were intercepted at the border by Syrian soldiers and killed. They had with them plans to assassinate soldiers and bomb busy areas. Luckily they were stopped.
5. Probably fear. Just like the surrendering of many soldiers in Iraq when the war began. They fear being on Assad's side will get them killed later on by the rebels who they think will take over. Luckily, only a small percentage left, and the majority remains loyal to protecting their country.
6. I didn't say he was great and i said he has done many mistakes. But i am confident he is a million times better then terrorist rebels who have committed many more crimes and want to implement a Saudi Arabia like government with Sharia Law. That is much worse.
Here is a story i was just told by a friend of mine living in Syria. He lives not far from Damascus and these are his encounters with rebels. Copy and pasted it for anyone interested:
QUOTE
the first thing is when I was going to dar3a to sell vegetables and stuff from our farm, armed people that were hiding on the road blocked the road, stopped me and took all the merchandise and all the money on me. this has happened with other people i know also.
the second thing is 1 month ago, pickup truck with people with weapon came into our village and stopped at one place. some people in the village saw them, call the security and call other people in the village to give warning, and everyone called everyone else in the village so everyone knew and watched from their window of house and some of them got weapon ready in case. security came and approached them. the armed men start firing on the security and martyred 1 and tried to escape. the people in village that had weapon ready responded to fire and prevented them from escaping. we killed 1 and prevented the other from escaping and other security came and take them.
This post has been edited by GTAknowledge on Wednesday, Feb 1 2012, 15:38
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GTAKnowledge, I was told by people over there that the government is murdering people by the dozens daily. I know people there. The people you know are wrong.
GTAKnowledge, I was told by people over there that the government is murdering people by the dozens daily. I know people there. The people you know are wrong.
The government is murdering rebels and anyone associated with them by the dozens. There no longer are any peaceful protests without the presence of rebels in the crowds. Some of these protesters who are actually peaceful may find them selves in the crossfire. These are the only innocent people who the army may have killed, accidentally.
And no, the people i know are not wrong. My family and friends living in the middle of all this would not lie to me about this. Neither would the Syrians living here who have family in Syria that they talk to regularly. .
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QUOTE (GTAknowledge @ Thursday, Feb 2 2012, 01:13)
Some of these protesters who are actually peaceful may find them selves in the crossfire. These are the only innocent people who the army may have killed, accidentally.
There's quite a few people, charities and NGO's who would disagree with that, and I think there are plenty of people in Syria who would totally condemn that statement. Don't you think that is a bit naive? In fact there's scores of eyewitness accounts of the army opening fire upon unarmed civilians. It really does seem you have fallen for the Syrian propaganda.
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QUOTE (GTAknowledge @ Thursday, Feb 2 2012, 01:13)
And no, the people i know are not wrong. My family and friends living in the middle of all this would not lie to me about this. Neither would the Syrians living here who have family in Syria that they talk to regularly. .
How are you so sure that they are not lying to you?
For all you know they could have been threatened by the army to tell you that everything is going a-okay, quite like North Korea.
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QUOTE (GTAknowledge @ Wednesday, Feb 1 2012, 20:13)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Feb 1 2012, 20:30)
GTAKnowledge, I was told by people over there that the government is murdering people by the dozens daily. I know people there. The people you know are wrong.
The government is murdering rebels and anyone associated with them by the dozens. There no longer are any peaceful protests without the presence of rebels in the crowds. Some of these protesters who are actually peaceful may find them selves in the crossfire. These are the only innocent people who the army may have killed, accidentally.
And no, the people i know are not wrong. My family and friends living in the middle of all this would not lie to me about this. Neither would the Syrians living here who have family in Syria that they talk to regularly. .
Nope mine are there and they are right. Yours are wrong.
QUOTE (AlexGTAGamer @ Thursday, Feb 2 2012, 01:32)
QUOTE (GTAknowledge @ Thursday, Feb 2 2012, 01:13)
And no, the people i know are not wrong. My family and friends living in the middle of all this would not lie to me about this. Neither would the Syrians living here who have family in Syria that they talk to regularly. .
How are you so sure that they are not lying to you?
For all you know they could have been threatened by the army to tell you that everything is going a-okay, quite like North Korea.
Nope. I know 2 brothers who's town was taken over by rebels. They fled to Beirut a few days ago and what they are telling me matches exactly what those still in Syria are telling me.
You can't get EVERYBODY to lie and say the exact same thing. I know people in hospital ffs who are victims of rebel attacks.
@Irviding: Thanks for confirming your age of being a very young teenager or an under-developed adult.
You still haven't answer my question, so i will repeat with a similar scenario:
If in the US, right now, people began protesting, let's say 20,000 people surrounded the white house demanding change of government. The government doesn't listen and the crowds grow and start becoming violent.
Next, add to this armed Mexican gang members (rebels who illegally entered the country, let's say 2,000 of them) joined these protests and set up camp around them. These rebels have wondered the streets of Washington kidnapping people, raping women and climbing on apartment rooftops and start to sniper down random civilians. They have also started bombing busy places and walk around in crowded areas with ROCKET LAUNCHERS and terrorize people. Dead bodies are everywhere on the streets.
These crowds and rebels grow. They are taking over more towns and cities and have began massive killings of people opposed to them (Average Americans).
What does Obama do? How does the military react to the country possibly being taken over by them and the people who support these acts?
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Excuse me? All I'm doing is pointing about the complete and total lack of veracity of your sourcing. Do you see how all I have to do is come here and spam saying "Nope I know people there who say differently" to convey what you're conveying? You've yet to produce any proof other than A) nazi style propaganda coming out of Syria, or B) claims of knowing people who tell you what is happening.
Sorry - but that don't fly my friend. If you've ever been to college, or high school for that measure, you'd know that claiming you know a guy over there isn't enough to disprove entire news networks, the United Nations, the Arab League, thousands of amateur videos, etc. If you've ever taken a semester of forensics or criminalistics, you're taught day one that a camera cannot lie. When you pick up Syrian soldiers executing people on the street solely because they protest, we have a problem.
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