[El_Diablo]

I don't care how many times you put "body" alongside "house, car, etc."

it doesn't change the fact that it's utterly immoral to deny people health care for preexisting conditions.
this is not metal or wood. this is not your sh*tty car or your sh*tty house.

this is your life.
the only one we get.

none of the individual measures within the Affordable Care Act will cause health insurance companies to suddenly go insolvent.
providing for children and adults with preexisting conditions is no different.

QUOTE (Chunkyman)

For the people with little money and/or very expensive conditions, people will give their money either to them or to charity hospitals which will care for them free-of-charge.

that's great in theory.
that's bullsh*t in reality.

people die without health insurance every day.
no one magically steps up to foot their bills when they can no longer afford cancer treatments.

[Icarus]

QUOTE (The Killa @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 22:20)

Like Canada.

We've had universal healthcare since the sixties and this country hasn't collapsed... yet.

[The Killa]

QUOTE (Tyler @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 22:44)

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 22:39) There must be something in there that makes them consistently vote Republican, and I think it's very hard to buy into this idea that it's entirely due to stupidity. I say ignorance. They're not devoid of intelligence, they're just not prime on what they need to know lately. Most vote Republican because they've done it for as long as they've lived, and they'll be damned if they'll give their vote to some muslim liberal satanist socialist communist dog eater who's pushing taxes on them. Honestly, though. Misinformation is the key to why a good 1/4th of the country is going against all logic to vote for someone they have no business voting for statistically.

I'd say it's a different perspective in a way, and their exposure to certain political tug-of-wars compared to others on the right. For example, Dick Cheney has a different view on gay marriage because his daughter is gay, and John McCain has a different view on torture because of his experience.

It's not necessarily an issue of staring at a nurse who has to take your mother off the feeding tube and life support because you can't afford it, but it's the realization that such problems like that exist, and sometimes puts thing into perspective. Therefore, how can we trust someone like Romney to put America in the best interest in the same sense that the rest of us see it as? We don't want less taxes for the rich and less regulation on Wall Street, but apparently it's a huge pressing issue.

QUOTE

what do you mean "seriously?" of course people call it that. it's just shorthand. SCOTUS = Supreme Court of the United States just like POTUS = President of the United States is this surprising to you?

Oh, I know what it means and so on, but I just get a strange urge to punch anyone who says it in the face. An urge akin to every time Jar Jar Binks' fat gob appeared on my TV screen while watching Star Wars.

This post has been edited by The Killa on Friday, Jun 29 2012, 05:02

[Adept]

Should I listen to the Conservative Republicans or the Liberal Democrats? Which ones have the right answers to our problems? Do some on the left do and some on the right do? Or is it one way or the other? I'm confused.

[Chunkyman]

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 04:52)

it doesn't change the fact that it's utterly immoral to deny people health care for preexisting conditions.

For starters, they don't deny people healthcare. It's not like they stand at the doors of hospitals with armed guards and keep sick people out. They just don't allow them into their risk pool.

Furthermore, it's immoral to force someone to pay for someone else's expenses. You do not have a right to other people's money, and you do not have a right to force doctors to treat people.

[The Killa]

QUOTE (Adept @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 23:04)

Should I listen to the Conservative Republicans or the Liberal Democrats? Which ones have the right answers to our problems? Do some on the left do and some on the right do? Or is it one way or the other? I'm confused.

As cliche as it sounds - listen to yourself. Analyze issues and problems and decide for yourself what is right and wrong.

[Adept]

QUOTE (The Killa @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 05:07)

QUOTE (Adept @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 23:04) Should I listen to the Conservative Republicans or the Liberal Democrats? Which ones have the right answers to our problems? Do some on the left do and some on the right do? Or is it one way or the other? I'm confused. As cliche as it sounds - listen to yourself. Analyze issues and problems and decide for yourself what is right and wrong.

Hmm. Sounds reasonable. Thank you.

[spaceeinstein]

QUOTE (Tyler @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 23:44)

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 22:39) There must be something in there that makes them consistently vote Republican, and I think it's very hard to buy into this idea that it's entirely due to stupidity. I say ignorance. They're not devoid of intelligence, they're just not prime on what they need to know lately. Most vote Republican because they've done it for as long as they've lived, and they'll be damned if they'll give their vote to some muslim liberal satanist socialist communist dog eater who's pushing taxes on them. Honestly, though. Misinformation is the key to why a good 1/4th of the country is going against all logic to vote for someone they have no business voting for statistically.

I'm not too sure about the history of politics, but what about the "Southern Democrats" before the civil rights movement/Southern strategy? I think back then the majority of the South voted Democrat. Something happened that shifted people's votes to Republican.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 00:06)

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 04:52) it doesn't change the fact that it's utterly immoral to deny people health care for preexisting conditions. For starters, they don't deny people healthcare. It's not like they stand at the doors of hospitals with armed guards and keep sick people out. They just don't allow them into their risk pool. Furthermore, it's immoral to force someone to pay for someone else's expenses. You do not have a right to other people's money, and you do not have a right to force doctors to treat people.

When you pay a fee every month for it you are entitled to that service. I fail to see how you can sit here and defend health insurance companies for not providing insurance to people who are sick and dying. By the way, Obamacare was crafted with insurance companies in mind; it was build to ensure they were still able to turn profits. The individual mandate part ensures that.

[MikeChase69]

QUOTE (spaceeinstein @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 05:14)

QUOTE (Tyler @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 23:44) QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 22:39) There must be something in there that makes them consistently vote Republican, and I think it's very hard to buy into this idea that it's entirely due to stupidity. I say ignorance. They're not devoid of intelligence, they're just not prime on what they need to know lately. Most vote Republican because they've done it for as long as they've lived, and they'll be damned if they'll give their vote to some muslim liberal satanist socialist communist dog eater who's pushing taxes on them. Honestly, though. Misinformation is the key to why a good 1/4th of the country is going against all logic to vote for someone they have no business voting for statistically. I'm not too sure about the history of politics, but what about the "Southern Democrats" before the civil rights movement/Southern strategy? I think back then the majority of the South voted Democrat. Something happened that shifted people's votes to Republican.

Ronald Reagan.

[MikeChase69]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 05:46)

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 00:06) QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 04:52) it doesn't change the fact that it's utterly immoral to deny people health care for preexisting conditions. For starters, they don't deny people healthcare. It's not like they stand at the doors of hospitals with armed guards and keep sick people out. They just don't allow them into their risk pool. Furthermore, it's immoral to force someone to pay for someone else's expenses. You do not have a right to other people's money, and you do not have a right to force doctors to treat people. When you pay a fee every month for it you are entitled to that service. I fail to see how you can sit here and defend health insurance companies for not providing insurance to people who are sick and dying. By the way, Obamacare was crafted with insurance companies in mind; it was build to ensure they were still able to turn profits. The individual mandate part ensures that.

It's pretty much Romney Care or if you remember back to the 90's its what the Republicans were pushing for instead of Universal Health Care.

[Antinark]

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 01:06)

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 04:52) it doesn't change the fact that it's utterly immoral to deny people health care for preexisting conditions. For starters, they don't deny people healthcare. It's not like they stand at the doors of hospitals with armed guards and keep sick people out. They just don't allow them into their risk pool. Furthermore, it's immoral to force someone to pay for someone else's expenses. You do not have a right to other people's money, and you do not have a right to force doctors to treat people.

Is that so?

So I guess it's immoral for pedestrians to pay for road upkeep? Or for pacifists to pay for national defence? I don't have a gas stove, so why should I have to pay for all those expensive pipes in the ground! I guess it's immoral for environmentalists to subsidize the oil industry with their tax dollars and it most certainly must be immoral for me to pay for police, firefighters and schools if I don't commit crimes, have children or am a victim of arson!

This is the most slippery slope argument I've come across in this debate. Unless you're f*cking Grizzly Adams you have need for subsidized services, it's a fundamental part of living in society. Other people pay for you to enjoy services they may or may not use themselves every day. Taxation exists to improve the quality of life for everybody, and until your whiny NIMBY ilk f*cks off into the entitled desert you came from, you're gonna have to learn to shut up and realize that the world is bigger than you.

Having a sick and indebted society is bad for any economy, especially when the population is carrying a high debt load due to shady HMO's.

[Chunkyman]

QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 05:46)

When you pay a fee every month for it you are entitled to that service. I fail to see how you can sit here and defend health insurance companies for not providing insurance to people who are sick and dying. By the way, Obamacare was crafted with insurance companies in mind; it was build to ensure they were still able to turn profits. The individual mandate part ensures that.

If you are accepted as a member of the risk pool, you are absolutely right. They are not obligated (morally) to accept everyone. They are not a charity.

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Thursday, Jun 28 2012, 22:06)

For starters, they don't deny people healthcare. It's not like they stand at the doors of hospitals with armed guards and keep sick people out. They just don't allow them into their risk pool.

for starters, are you insane?
this is the US we're talking about. the US on planet Earth.

they deny people health care every day. women, children, it doesn't matter.

now...
IT'S TRUE that if you're in critical condition and arrive at the hospital doorstep, they WILL take you in and stabilize you. if you cannot afford the treatment you received then the hospital swallows the bill and lets you go on your way.

but if for ANY OTHER REASON you show up at a hospital and need them to fix something that is broken - but not immediately life threatening - they will ask if you can pay for it first and turn you away if you cannot. children whose parents did not have health care (for whatever reason) prior to the child suffering a rare form of bone cancer WILL BE DENIED LIFE SAVING CARE if the money is not provided through charity or donations.

this happens every single day in the US.
I cannot stress enough how callously misleading it is for you to say otherwise.

QUOTE

it's immoral to force someone to pay for someone else's expenses.

I'm sorry but this is a gross oversimplification of what the Affordable Care Act actually entails.

I also disagree with the premise of your statement.
health care is not expense like buying a goddamn sofa for the living room. health care should be a human right.

[lil weasel]

There was the saying back in the olden days: "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs".
Another saw was: "A Business never pays taxes (or fines), the customers do."

Business' that will be taxed for the 'Health Care' shouldn't worry, except that they will have to raise their prices to cover it. Or cut their profits.

Since some of the Children on the forum may not be up on the quotes above, I'll continue to try and explain:

Insurance has always been price guided by the Actuaries. the calculation they make determine how much the insured pays. If the crazy idea that everyone will get insured care, even those that are at risk the most would drive prices UP or need to exclude the sickest.

So a National Health Tax that would cover everyone would have to paid on a sliding/stepped scale according to how much income a person has. The Richest would be required to pay for the poorest.

It's just like auto insurance. Every driver is required to have his/her vehicle insured. But, some people manage to avoid paying, and do just fine until they have a collision. Then the other party is required to carry 'uninsured motorist' coverage or suffer more.
If the Government is going to require insurance cover then the Government should be the insurer. That's the only way to get everyone covered. Independant Companies cannot protect every individual without enforced taxes.
Which leads to the big BUG-A-BOO of Communism. Which to most 'properly' indoctrinated Americans is worse than death.

This post has been edited by lil weasel on Friday, Jun 29 2012, 08:35

[MikeChase69]

Your point?

[Chunkyman]

QUOTE (Antinark @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 06:13)

So I guess it's immoral for pedestrians to pay for road upkeep? Or for pacifists to pay for national defence? I don't have a gas stove, so why should I have to pay for all those expensive pipes in the ground! I guess it's immoral for environmentalists to subsidize the oil industry with their tax dollars and it most certainly must be immoral for me to pay for police, firefighters and schools if I don't commit crimes, have children or am a victim of arson! This is the most slippery slope argument I've come across in this debate. Unless you're f*cking Grizzly Adams you have need for subsidized services, it's a fundamental part of living in society. Other people pay for you to enjoy services they may or may not use themselves every day. Taxation exists to improve the quality of life for everybody, and until your whiny NIMBY ilk f*cks off into the entitled desert you came from, you're gonna have to learn to shut up and realize that the world is bigger than you.

It's not immoral to pay for any of those things voluntarily. It's immoral to collect money via the threat of force in order to fund anything. I could give people the greatest service in the history of the universe, it still doesn't morally justify me taking their money by force (or threat of force) to fund it.

Also, I have a handy dandy thread here if you would like to talk about the morality of taxation. I try to keep all of the people calling me a retard condensed into one thread for the sake of convenience.

[El_Diablo]

I don't think your dissenters believe you're retarded.

but you're severely misinformed about several key elements of this bill.

[sivispacem]

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Friday, Jun 29 2012, 08:40)

Also, I have a handy dandy thread here if you would like to talk about the morality of taxation. I try to keep all of the people calling me a retard condensed into one thread for the sake of convenience.

To be fair, much of the debate in that topic can be boiled down to you not subscribing to Social Contract Theory, which is all well and good but it has been the basis of civilised society for almost as long as it has existed. Plus your questioning of the morality of the legitimate use of force by a state actor/state monopoly on violence, the morality of which it is hard to question as states are intrinsically amoral (as they are not cognitive beings in themselves). Surely the morality of actions takes by the administration of a politically pluralistic and free state can only be judged by the electorate as a whole?

[fgcarva1]

If I may add I am disgusted by many American right-wing arguments against Obamacare. I am in support of providing money to keep others as well as myself healthy. It works in Canada, trust me, I've been to plenty of clinics when I lived there and health care was a breeze. Besides the economic factor... if people who are not insured need health care they'll be billed sh*ttons which will cause them to be broke and will further destroy the American economy.

And like many people have said here (Diablo, antinark and irvding for instance) it's the benefit of being in a society.