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QUOTE (sivispacem)
what you are saying is "the very values that makes Western culture and ideology the positive thing it is seen to be by many, are in fact what cause people to disrespect this country"? What an astonishingly contradictory statement.
Agreed, pity I didn't say that then you could really dig into me.
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QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Saturday, Jun 30 2012, 18:18)
QUOTE (sivispacem)
what you are saying is "the very values that makes Western culture and ideology the positive thing it is seen to be by many, are in fact what cause people to disrespect this country"? What an astonishingly contradictory statement.
Agreed, pity I didn't say that then you could really dig into me.
Yes, I did say that, seven months ago. If it really bothers you that much, then why didn't you respond then? Or are you intentionally being an irritating, pathetic contrarian to try and prove some kind of point? Do you have anything intelligent to add, or are you just going to be snide? How about you explain exactly what you were saying with that statement, because this defence of "what it means to be British" directly preceded a very contrived and outspoken attack on the apparently large segment of the population in higher education who sympathise with radical Islam (you never did actually provide any evidence for this), and was proceeded by statements like this-
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Saturday, Dec 3 2011, 13:35)
...Some Islamist radicals (a couple of them white and british) are trying to enforce another cultures rules in our country
I'm sorry, but this is absolute and total horse-sh*t; it's scaremongering of the highest order and completely unsubstantiated. Yet you claim it, as if it is "fact". Well I'm sorry, it's simply xenophobia, handily condensed into a single sentence. The irony being, as was highlighted by original post, that you simultaneously decry the actions of a small segment of the population who you believe to be "disrespecting" the United Kingdom and British history and culture, yet at the same time speak out against freedom of expression within the law- one of the most hard-fought and noble of all British ideals, as something which encourages youth violence AND allows radical Islamists to do things you don't particularly like.
If you want to whine and bitch and moan, feel free to do it in General Chat, or, even better, somewhere were I won't have to read it. Like V. I bet you fit in well there.
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please stop it, your being an annoyingly officous little prick. I've had it with your total lack of respect, I don't see why your a moderator here when you act with such little class, this is a debate, you know that. This is what the forum is called, thats the whole point. I don't know why I have to teach you this but stop it with the personal insults, you intentionally misinterpreted what I said to fit your little agenda, leave it alone and lets continue this in a cival fashion.
what I said in that below quote was true, no matter what you thought I was getting at, it was true as a statement. Radical Muslims were trying to enforce sharia law, at least at that time, in their neighbourhood. That was my statement, did I ever say that is what the majority were doing? No. I dislike people trying to force their ideals, no matter who or what they are or what they believe in. But doing it in another country is simply wrong, those individuals were wrong.
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QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 21:18)
No. I dislike people trying to force their ideals, no matter who or what they are or what they believe in. But doing it in another country is simply wrong, those individuals were wrong.
Yeah. There is no irony in saying that you dislike people trying to force their ideals on anyone, so these guys should totally shut up and stop what they're doing because, according to your ideals, it's wrong. No sir, no irony there.
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QUOTE (Robinski @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 21:45)
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 21:18)
No. I dislike people trying to force their ideals, no matter who or what they are or what they believe in. But doing it in another country is simply wrong, those individuals were wrong.
Yeah. There is no irony in saying that you dislike people trying to force their ideals on anyone, so these guys should totally shut up and stop what they're doing because, according to your ideals, it's wrong. No sir, no irony there.
talk about nitpicky, if they want to live like that, fine. why force it onto us? I think you've kinda missed my point , I'm not saying "live like us or f*ck off", i'm saying "we live like this, stop trying to change us".
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QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Tuesday, Jul 3 2012, 16:39)
QUOTE (Robinski @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 21:45)
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 21:18)
No. I dislike people trying to force their ideals, no matter who or what they are or what they believe in. But doing it in another country is simply wrong, those individuals were wrong.
Yeah. There is no irony in saying that you dislike people trying to force their ideals on anyone, so these guys should totally shut up and stop what they're doing because, according to your ideals, it's wrong. No sir, no irony there.
talk about nitpicky, if they want to live like that, fine. why force it onto us? I think you've kinda missed my point , I'm not saying "live like us or f*ck off", i'm saying "we live like this, stop trying to change us".
nice try though.
Can I ask you something man, what are you even angry at? You're ranting about Muslims trying to change you and people burning poppies, I mean why do you give a sh*t? Do you just want something to hate and yell about?
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QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 22:18)
what I said in that below quote was true, no matter what you thought I was getting at, it was true as a statement.
Was it? Care to provide some evidence to demonstrate that is was? You keep saying that it's "true" but seem very unwilling to provide anything that constitutes evidence to support your argument. It's certainly not self-evident, because if it was I wouldn't be arguing with you. So, please provide something tangible to support the idea that Islamist radicals are trying to "enforce another country's rules in this country". Because last I heard, we don't have Sharia courts in the UK, as much as a very small subsection of the most radical elements of the Muslim population would like them. And its very difficult to enforce something that isn't there.
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 22:18)
Radical Muslims were trying to enforce sharia law, at least at that time, in their neighbourhood.
No they aren't. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that anyone has ever succeeded in creating a secondary, Sharia-based legal system in the United Kingdom, regardless of where and when. I feel you may be confusing the aspirations of a small proportion of this population with reality. I don't deny that there are some who really do want to install Sharia legal institutions in the UK but to try and insinuate that it is happening or has happened is utterly absurd scaremongering. The closest we've ever really got to law-enforcing Sharia institutions in the UK are the individual and isolated cases of family-based retribution over the shunning of arranged marriages and daughters picking "unfavourable" partners. Claiming that there is some kind of Sharia-court-based legal system that runs parallel to the regular one in certain communities is basically a conspiracy theory, in my view. Absolutely baseless. What's more, it also demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the role and operations of "Sharia courts", which do exist, albeit in quite limited numbers. They serve the purpose of dispute and conflict resolution and provide advice to citizens, much in the same way that churches have pastoral support, or various charities offer dispute resolution services. Only someone fed on the rabid xenophobic horse-sh*t churned out by the likes of the Daily Mail would attack the presence of organisations whose sole purpose is essentially to encourage community cohesion. Additionally, only someone who had failed to do their research on Sharia law would fail to understand that there is far more to it than the simple ideas of chopping off thieves hands and punishing people for speaking ill of Mohammed.
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 22:18)
That was my statement, did I ever say that is what the majority were doing?
No, you didn't, but you obviously misunderstood the role of Sharia law in the lives of most Muslims. It focuses far more heavily on personal aspects- hygiene, diet, prayer- than it does on political or criminal ideas; in fact, its absolutely no different to the moral codes of Christianity in most respects, which are so entrenched into British society that it is difficult to even determine where they end and Common Law begins. What's more, Sharia law is itself heavily dependent on interpretation- which is why homosexuality is punishable by death in Iran, but completely legal in Jordan.
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 22:18)
No. I dislike people trying to force their ideals, no matter who or what they are or what they believe in. But doing it in another country is simply wrong, those individuals were wrong.
They aren't. You keep making this claim and failing to back it up in any way. Its fine for you to say "I think that...they are forcing their ides on people", but you have entirely failed to provide any evidence to support it. The presence of Sharia courts in some mosques in the UK is not a sign of a subversive, Islamic counter-law but a simple pastoral system in no way dissimilar to those in Christian churches. I've actually been to mosques which have "Sharia courts" as part of research work previously, and the advice and services provided by them most certainly do not include anything that could be seen as subversive. Unless, of course, you think helping young, recently-married men to overcome feelings of jealousy towards their partner's ex-boyfriends, or quite frank discussion of alcohol & drugs, and their relation to modern Islam are "subversive". Most of the people who work in these organisations are closer to your archetypal country vicar than they are you firebrand preacher- they are largely centrist, if conservative in their interpretations of Islam; they actively support community cohesion and speak out against inter-ethnic and inter-racial violence. In fact, I suggest you find one and have a chat with the imam- you'll probably find them very accommodating.
May I point out that Islam4UK don't exist anymore, as they are a proscribed organisation? May I also point out that they never had the support of much more than a few hundred people (and even this was questionable); that they never actively attempted to implement Sharia law in any part of the UK and merely discussed it, and that their public presence was blown out of proportion tremendously by the media? Finally, despite them being proscribed, there is absolutely no evidence they were ever involved in terrorism, in direct or indirect threats against the state, or in anything actually illegal. If you want to start punishing people for having beliefs that may be subversive but not acting on them, why don't we lock up all the members of far-right groups like the EDL and BNP, as well as the ex-members of the likes of Combat 18 and Blood and Honour? You know what, Judaism has a (legally sanctioned) court system for arbitration and dispute resolution almost identical to that of some Islamic communities in the UK- why don't we ban that too, and lock up anyone involved, because if its subversive in Islam it must be subversive in Judaism. And pastoral support in some Christian churches can go against ideas such as homosexuality being legal and therefore right, so lets lock up all the vicars and priests too. And then what if people speak ill of the government? That's tantamount to subversion so we can lock up anyone whose ever said Gordon Brown was a bit thick. Oh wait, now we are living in Stalinist Russia.
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Monday, Jul 2 2012, 22:18)
thats what I said, and don't try to turn it around or use it against me. I know what your doing and it's got really old.
Sorry, but I didn't need to turn it around to use against me. Your own lack of understanding of the topic at hand effectively sealed your fate once you started going on about people enforcing Sharia law in the UK.
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QUOTE (Butters 2011 @ Sunday, Nov 27 2011, 17:11)
In the recent months/years, there have been many cases of politics trying to spoil everything to do with being proud of being English....in England?!?!
The earliest case I can remember was the whole England Flag debacle that went on quite some years back. Basically, the Government warned that taxi drivers, along with some others such as bin men, were banned from flying the England flag within their vehicles during the world cup. Here is a quote I found on a news article, and it actually sickens me to read it:
QUOTE
London's cabbies are normally prevented from displaying patriotic material on their vehicles under a ban on signs and advertising.
Advertising? Are you f*cking kidding me? The only thing being advertised here is the fact that we want to support our own country throughout a world cup. Here a few articles regarding this:
The workers were threatened with the sack if they were to fly the flags during the world cup. TBH, as a kid I felt like I was breaking some law by having my flags up on the windows of my house. This is just wrong in every way.
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The next one is when we suddenly saw 'English' dissapear from forms, and replaced with White British. Now I understand there may be reasons behind this, but it seems like yet another step towards wiping out the 'English', if you get me.
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Or how about the fact that Merry Xmas is now deemed racist. I'm not sure if this has effected any other country, but I see my own Government using the term Happy Holidays. With this also came the curb on decorating towns and cities with Xmas trees and lights due to the fear it may seem offensive to other cultures. Growing up in Bradford, I grew up seeing the whole city decorated with Eid decorations, which were kept up for the whole of the holiday season, yet Xmas came around and it seemed like they feared to celebrate the tradition. Some articles I quickly found on Google:
I know quite a few cities that won't be putting up any decorations during the festive season, and it sickens me yet again.
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My last point for now, and the most recent thing to rile my blood:
Some months back, a Muslim was in the news for burning a poppy wreath, and only receiving a very minimum fine from the courts, which was a substantially less amount of money than a man got fined for dropping a tab end on the floor.
Yes, I understand that these people are extremists and whatever, but the point to all of this is how our Government seems to be sitting back and letting all this happen, in fear of being classed as racist. The funny thing is, I have yet to meet a single foreigner who is offended by any of the English culture, yet the Government seems to still be trying to force us to lose pride in our country.
I believe in Free Speech and all that sh*t, but I don't believe in an English Government who aren't even proud to announce that they are English, due to the fact they may be labelled as racist.
Take a look across the water, and from what I've seen, it seems just about every American house & building has at least one flag on the outside of the building. Why the hell is this country not like that? Why the hell should I feel like I'm breaking some type of law by waving my England flag around. Why are we sitting back and letting them make a mockery of our country?
I am in no way racist, but I am sick of the fact that our own Government is too scared to be classed as racist that they have let this country lose all it's pride.
Great Britain, Pffft, don't make me f*cking laugh.
Anyone else feel this way, or am I just ranting at small things? Should England get some pride bakc into it, and finally understand that no minority is offended by a f*cking English flag, or any of our traditions.
This is multiculturalism in a nutshell. Multiculturalism is the idea that you need to feel ashamed of your European ancestry. Multiculturalism is the idea that immigrants belong to a different group and a different caste than the rest of us do.
Multiculturalism is the idea that you need to feel ashamed of your European ancestry. Multiculturalism is the idea that immigrants belong to a different group and a different caste than the rest of us do.
In light of the many pages of intelligent discussion, please quantify your statements. Multicultural, by its very definition, is not what you describe it as.
Is it wrong to not like multiculturalism? I know the answer already and I know it's not "Wrong" to hate anything despite what people say. The weird thing is, I'm born in England and one side of my family is Italian and the other side is a mixture of English and Burmese, so really I'm a pretty multicultural guy myself yet I hate the Idea of multiculturalism. Also I identify myself more than anything with my Italian side since that's how I was brought up and most of my "blood" is Italian whilst the other half is a mixture of things. That's even more weird because when I hear British people say that they don't like multiculturalism I agree with them. Maybe that's because I'm not that foreign looking in comparison to other ethnic groups but I still don't at all look British. I also think it's because if Italy (Like I said, that's the nation I relate to the most) became multicultural I would hate that, absolutely. The reason behind that is because I like my culture enough, that I don't want other cultures in Italy surpassing it or changing it. I love my national/ethnic identity because I can see all the good things my people have done but also all the bad things and all the history behind it.
Now you may be thinking I can do that with other cultures in Italy as well, but I suppose I just wouldn't like to see Italy turn out like some places in London, where a particular ethnic group is very present and where it feels different from the traditional cultures of the country that it's in. I'm not talking about things like "Chinatown" and "Little Italy" and things like that either, I mean where a whole area is dominated by a sort of foreign culture. Maybe I am just xenophobic, simple as that. Like, I don't mind seeing non-Italians in Italy who are Christian as much as I mind people from Islamic countries in Italy. Maybe it's because their culture is very different from mine, but yeah I just don't like it, especially if that certain ethnic/religious group is big in numbers in the country. If there were few of them, that would be fine but then that's where immigration comes in. I think Immigration should be controlled more, in order to protect the indigenous people's of a country, along with it's traditions, culture and genetic make up. Sorry if I sound like a rambling racist, I don't mean to be and I find it hard to explain myself sometimes, so please don't judge...
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QUOTE (Sanjeem @ Tuesday, Jul 10 2012, 20:18)
Is it wrong to not like multiculturalism? I know the answer already and I know it's not "Wrong" to hate anything despite what people say. The weird thing is, I'm born in England and one side of my family is Italian and the other side is a mixture of English and Burmese, so really I'm a pretty multicultural guy myself yet I hate the Idea of multiculturalism. Also I identify myself more than anything with my Italian side since that's how I was brought up and most of my "blood" is Italian whilst the other half is a mixture of things. That's even more weird because when I hear British people say that they don't like multiculturalism I agree with them. Maybe that's because I'm not that foreign looking in comparison to other ethnic groups but I still don't at all look British. I also think it's because if Italy (Like I said, that's the nation I relate to the most) became multicultural I would hate that, absolutely. The reason behind that is because I like my culture enough, that I don't want other cultures in Italy surpassing it or changing it. I love my national/ethnic identity because I can see all the good things my people have done but also all the bad things and all the history behind it.
Now you may be thinking I can do that with other cultures in Italy as well, but I suppose I just wouldn't like to see Italy turn out like some places in London, where a particular ethnic group is very present and where it feels different from the traditional cultures of the country that it's in. I'm not talking about things like "Chinatown" and "Little Italy" and things like that either, I mean where a whole area is dominated by a sort of foreign culture. Maybe I am just xenophobic, simple as that. Like, I don't mind seeing non-Italians in Italy who are Christian as much as I mind people from Islamic countries in Italy. Maybe it's because their culture is very different from mine, but yeah I just don't like it, especially if that certain ethnic/religious group is big in numbers in the country. If there were few of them, that would be fine but then that's where immigration comes in. I think Immigration should be controlled more, in order to protect the indigenous people's of a country, along with it's traditions, culture and genetic make up. Sorry if I sound like a rambling racist, I don't mean to be and I find it hard to explain myself sometimes, so please don't judge...
I agree with you..
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This post has been edited by sivispacem on Saturday, Jul 14 2012, 11:29
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I agree. It does feel like every English person doesn't belong in England. Don't know if you knew this, but there was an advert in a Polish high security prison, telling the prisoners to "go to Bognor Regis for a better life" Is it me, or does that show that the Polish government does not wants it's people so they are sending them over here.
Further more, if I was to walk along the street in my town, which actually is Bognor Regis by the way, I would be lucky to her a single English voice.
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QUOTE (stroud458 @ Wednesday, Jul 25 2012, 08:37)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, Jul 24 2012, 22:20)
QUOTE (stroud458 @ Tuesday, Jul 24 2012, 17:29)
I would be lucky to her a single English voice.
Sorry to hear that. I guess you guys need to banish all the foreigners now.
You would be correct. Well done.
I suggest you have a read of the thread in it's entirety before you continue posting. You are very close to making yourself look bigoted and/or xenophobic.
Sorry to hear that. I guess you guys need to banish all the foreigners now.
You would be correct. Well done.
I suggest you have a read of the thread in it's entirety before you continue posting. You are very close to making yourself look bigoted and/or xenophobic.
