[cidamelo]

Hi friends, when I created the topic "Raymond "Ray" Boccino, Let's discuss him" in GTA IV Forum http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=459057&st=0 a lot of people said I would hate Ray Boccino because he was very bad in The Lost And Damned. Well, when I played GTA IV, all I knew is that Jonathan "Johnny" Klebitz stole Ray's money, after the diamond fiascoObviously, because of it I didn't like Johnny in GTA IV, but I was thinking that maybe, when I play The Lost And Damned, I would see a good reason for Johnny do that. For example, the mission "Roman's Holiday" showed us the reason why Johnny kidnapped Roman Bellic. It was because Ashley Butler, his ex-"old lady", was owing money from the russians. So it was a "good reason".But when I play "Diamonds In The Rough", suddenly!!! Johnny says:Who knows, maybe down the line, there'll be an
opportunity to rip off the smug guido who gave us the job in the first
place. Come on! Brothers for life, Lost forever.I was like.........WHAT???? THAT'S THE REASON?? Ok.... IT ISN'T EVEN A REASON!!! It's completely GREED!!!! C'mon, from GTA IV, we know Ray would give to The Lost half of the money, 1 MILLION DOLLARS!!! 1 million dollars isn't enough for Johnny? It's A LOT OF MONEY, IT WAS THE HALF!! HALF FOR THE LOST!!! Ray Boccino would get the other half, but wait........he would share his half with Niko and another of his "guys", and the Pegorino Family........so if we think well, THE LOST WOULD WIN MORE THAN RAY!! THEY ALREADY HAD ADVANTAGE!! C'MON!!! JOHNNY IS GREEDY AND BACKSTABBING!!! WHY STEAL RAY????? So I was thinking more.... Maybe Johnny did that because he was JEALOUS of Ashley Butler!! Ashley was having an affair with Ray, but heeeeey, what's the problem? Johnny wasn't even dating Ashley anymore, and Ray seemed to be friendly and helpful with Ashley, as we can see in the GTA IV mission "Taking In The Trash". Johnny acts like a child, or better, almost everyone of The Lost acts like a child!! Like Ray said "You're all adults. Sort of." They are around 30 years old, and they act like teenagers! People like Johnny, Brian (the worst), Billy.......... I didn't understand what Ray did wrong!!!! It wasn't him who betrayed, who betrayed was THE LOST!!Now put yourself at Ray's place. What you would do? You would think "poor of this bikers,I will let them with my money, I don't care if they stole me, let them with my 2 million dollars!!C'MON!!!! How many times Ray said to Johnny to not get clever!!!!! Obviously that he would want the money back!!!! Jim Fitzgerard disappointed me very much. I thought he was, together with Angus, one of the only intelligent members of The Lost, but after "Collector's Item", greed took over him. The Jim I met, would say "Johnny, it isn't a good idea, half of the money is great, to steal the whole money will only give problems" but nooooo he laughs and catch all the money! Angus, my favorite member of The Lost, said in the end of the game: You know how it happens. It's that f*cked up part of people which means
good is never good enough. I mean it wasn't enough that we had to be
drug dealers, we also had to be outlaws, to be maniacs, to be psychos,
and to be greedy.
Terry That combination of greed and f*cked up stupidity, that works well. If
you're in the government. Not so good if you're a f*ckin' crook.. I completely agree. It wasn't Ray's fault. It was THEIR fault.
I loved Ray in The Lost And Damned!! He was very funny in The Lost and Damned, more than in GTA IV, don't you think? Oh, and I also loved his new outfit Fingerless gloves, maybe Ray likes to drive a bike sometimes ?
Now please answer my question: WHAT RAY DID WRONG ?

[batmankidal]

this is GTA, so the main character doesn't have to be good..
about Ray, I think he's got good taste of outfit. But he just another American Italian gangster..
Like old man Gambetti said : Pegorino not even a family..
So everyone of them can go sometime..

[buzbegone]

No cidamelo, you have it wrong that everyone hates Ray. We just hate him because you love him and want his children.

[Chimpso]

Good to know you love a murdering, sadistic, greedy Italian mobster who kills people by dumping them in car compactors and listening to their skulls pop. Don't cheat on him, or you'll get it cid.

QUOTE

Hi friends

We're not your friends.

[OGIamLoco]

Gangster types screwing each other over, I don’t think you have to do anything wrong.
That’s just the way they roll.

[cidamelo]

Hi batmankidal! I agree when you say that the GTA character doesn't have to be good. But when I said I like Ray Boccino, a lot of people said he wasn't good, but in the story, the bad one is Johnny, not Ray! Yes, he is very elegant Yes, Pegorino Family is failed and floped, but maybe that's why I like them, it's so fun to work for them
buzbegone you don't like me too much, do ya ? (Ray said it to Johnny )
Chimpso c'mon! Like batmankidal said, almost everyone in GTA is bad!!! If we think like you, we wouldn't like anyone in GTA, because all of them are ruthless murders! In real life, I would hate everyone in GTA, because I'm a good person, but c'mon it's a game!!! Oh, and I say "hi friends" because I consider you to be my friends
OGIamLoco yes! But I think The Lost wasn't clever to do that. Why they just didn't accept the 1 million?

This post has been edited by cidamelo on Wednesday, Jan 26 2011, 13:48

[buzbegone]

QUOTE (Chimpso @ Jan 26 2011, 19:41)

Good to know you love a murdering, sadistic, greedy Italian mobster who kills people by dumping them in car compactors and listening to their skulls pop. Don't cheat on him, or you'll get it cid. QUOTE Hi friends We're not your friends.

LOL at everything here.

QUOTE (cidamelo @ Jan 26 2011, 21:42)

buzbegone you don't like me too much, do ya ? (Ray said it to Johnny   )

No... not when you spam the forums with useless I <3 Ray/Claude topics

Case in point: This topic.

This post has been edited by buzbegone on Wednesday, Jan 26 2011, 14:23

[cidamelo]

buzbegone but I don't think this topic is useless. It's about the game, it's not a topic like "I love Ray he's the best" and just it

[The Lolwut Pear]

Ray was an ass, did you even see the cutscene when he was introduced and when Jim and Terry asked you to meet him?
"Yeah, everyone's friends with Ashley, ya know?"

Ray was a f*ckin' guido pig who hated the Lost and only used them as chump muscle for hole (Ashley) and diamonds (Diamonds In The Rough).

[cidamelo]

The Lolwut Pear I loved Ray in Action/Reaction cutscene Billy is so idiot, he thinks he is funny! Oh what he said about Ashley was offensive, but it was true And c'mon, Ashley wasn't with Johnny anymore. Even thought Ray wasn't so friendly with Lost, business is business, I really doubt Ray would kill Jim and destroy the safehouse if they didn't stole the money!! And I think he was good with Ashley.

[AlexGTAGamer]

Personally the reason why I think Johnny ripped Ray of was because:
1. The deal got busted by a certain Dominican male who we all know and saw this as a good chance to make away with the cash.
2. The Lost was falling apart and with that much money they would still be able to stay together (at least for a little while longer).
3. Johnny did not like being in Ray's pocket at all and just used The Lost as cheap muscle (kind of like the Albanians) for him to get these diamonds.

[cidamelo]

AlexGTAGamer
1. Ray said: "Niko said you have the money. Bring it back to me." He gave Johnny another chance, but Johnny lied and said he didn't have any money!! Does he think Ray is fool? I don't think The Lost was falling apart because of the money. It fell apart because of the greed, like Angus Martin said. They could be friends who likes to hang out in motorbikes, but noooo they chose the criminal life. And 1 million is a lot of money!!! A LOT Oh, obviously there are the boss (Ray) and the workers (The Lost), that's how the capitalism works. Ray wasn't bad at all, he was going to give The Lost HALF of the money (the other half, Ray would share with his goons, like Niko, and the Pegorino Family, so he would win less than a million!) I think Johnny wasn't clever! He knows that

[Chimpso]

Cidamelo... think about it like this. You're part of a disgruntled biker gang that is falling apart due to lack of funds. Some Italian-American mafia prick is using you as his chump muscle, making you do all the hard work and giving you a sh*t payoff. You've got 1mil of this asshole's cash in your hand. What would you do? He used you, he's banging your girlfriend, and he hates you anyway. Personally, I'd take the money and tell that Guido prick to go f*ck himself. Which is exactly what Johnny done.

[cidamelo]

Chimpso first: I don't think The Lost fell apart because of lack of money. I think it falled apart because the greed of their members, like Angus said in the end. The greed made a lot of Lost members die, they didn't need a lot of money, they just need their bikes and their club, and the most important, their friendship. I don't think the payoff was small. 1 million is a lot of money, and The Lost would make good use of the money more than Ray, because the money was all for them, while Ray would share his money with Niko and other goons and the Pegorino Family. Ashley wasn't dating Johnny anymore, and I think Ray was good with Ashley. He could be a little sarcastic about her, but he seemed to care about her. Oh, very clever choice. What happened? Now you lost one of your best friends and your motorclub is destroyed!! Congratulations!!! It wasn't easier to accept the 1 million, or even to not accept Ray's proposit? At least Ray would give half of the money to The Lost, even thought he doesn't like Johnny. He was fair.

This post has been edited by cidamelo on Thursday, Jan 27 2011, 01:40

[Chimpso]

Of course Johnny was unfair. But, with his reasons stared in my above posts, I understand why he did it. Greed will end us all, but remember that greed is an essential part of crime. Ray is just as bad (worse?) than Johnny. He kills people, he sells drugs to kids, he tourtures people. At least Johnny knew where to stop, and he did have some compassion (like when he told the Russians to go easy on Roman when he delivered him to them). He also cared for Ashliegh, which is something that Ray (IMO) only pretended to do. I actually regard Johnny as a "better" person than Ray. He may have murdered and been greedy, but he only done it when he deemed necessary. Ray had so much, he could have retired to Sicily or something, but his greed kept him in a life of crime. He tried to suck up to Pegorino on numerous occasions in an attempt to get to a higher position in the family, which in turn, led to his death, which I personally enjoyed. He was the greedy one.

[cidamelo]

Chimpso oh I understand it But it wasn't a good choice, I think he should think more instead of stealing Ray. I thought Jim wouldn't like the idea, because he always seemed intelligent Greed took over Lost, the ending was so sad Yes, Ray tortures and kills, but I don't remember he selling drugs to kids But at least he was fair in business!! He was going to pay Johnny! And I thinks he only do bad things to "people who deserve it" He gave Johnny a lot of chances!!! I think Ray really cared about Ashley, he seemed to care in Taking In The Trash. I think that, in the beginning of the relationship, Ray just pretended to love her, but later he really begun to care about Ashley. Obviously, Ray is greedy and ambitious, but he was fair, we would pay Johnny!! Ray was born in Westdyke, maybe he was an poor italian-american with a terrible family who saw the crime as an oportunity to make some money (not that I think that poor people should chose the crime life, I hate criminals but hey, we're talking about GTA ) Drusilla's is probably a family's tradition, but who knows? We don't know anything about Ray's past. When we read Michael Klebitz, Johnny's brother, e-mails, we notice that Johnny had a family, so I guess his life wasn't so bad. His brother is a good-citizen. It was like Angus said. At the start, they were just a bunch of guys who liked motorcycled, later they started to sell drugs, kill people.... that's why The Lost felt apart. And I don't think Ray was sooo bad with the Pegorino's. I can't remember he doing something wrong to them, I know he didn't tell Jimmy about the diamond's deal, but like he said to Phil, "Why to talk about things unless they become real?" He was kind of "independent", doing his own business apart the Family, but he didn't sound a backstabbing to me.

[El Zilcho]

Why are you saying Guido? Some Italian-Americans could find that offensive you know Just like it's disrespectful to say ni**a (much worse I know, but you see the point).

As for Ray - he was an asshole but I do see your point. However the rip off was a nessecary point for the story; the only other antagonist was Billy Grey so a back stabbing was required to set up the climax. And it's GTA - deals never go as planned so it was nessecary (and the sh*t storm created some cool missions) for Johnny to grab the money. I mean if you took the cash whose to say it was a good idea at all to return it to Ray? In that lifestyle the only people you can trust is probably yourself and your guys so Johnny did that. He went with the Lost but it ended up destroying itself. But he stayed true - unlike Billy.

[cidamelo]

El Zilcho I think it's better to have 1 million than have your best friend killed and your safehouse destroyed

[El Zilcho]

Johnny never expected that to happen. As naive and childlike as that may have been (one of the big themes of TLAD) it was still sincere.

[cidamelo]

El Zilcho c'mon he stole Ray's money and he expected to Ray do nothing about it? Yes, you're right, he was very naïve