[Cypress Hill]

QUOTE (Luke @ Apr 7 2007, 11:43)

QUOTE (Cypress Hill @ Apr 7 2007, 03:29) Actually, if a person's sexual orientation could be reversed because they were brought up as the opposite sex, it would imply that one's orientation is determined by environmental factors, like, in this case, their upbringing. Of course, I've never heard about "ill equipped" children being raised as the opposite sex before, so I don't know the details. That's actually what I'm saying, if a boy is brought up as a girl, they will go back to being attracted to girls - I'm working on their 'real' gender here, not the one they were brought up as. So it's actually suggesting that it's not environmental factors at all.

I thought what you were saying was that when someone is raised as the opposite sex, their orientation changed with their percieved gender, while you actually meant the opposite, right? I stand corrected.

[jimmy.]

It's neither wrong nor right, it just is. People are born that way, and it is not a choice, as any gay person will tell you; Trying to figure out if it's wrong or right is like trying to figure out if being black or if having blonde hair is wrong or right. Anyone who says it's wrong is self-righteous.

[GM Dude]

QUOTE (jimmy. @ Apr 8 2007, 03:15)

It's neither wrong nor right, it just is. People are born that way, and it is not a choice, as any gay person will tell you; Trying to figure out if it's wrong or right is like trying to figure out if being black or if having blonde hair is wrong or right. Anyone who says it's wrong is self-righteous.

Exactly. Any Fundie Christian who tries to use the Old Testament{or modified NT stuff} as an excuse for their bullsh*t can shove it up their self-righteous, hate-mongering, ignorant, asses, IMO.

[asimov]

QUOTE

First of all, humans ever since our ape ancestors, had common goals in life that were meant to ensure the survial of the human race

I once saw a show called "animal homosexuality", although it really only covered mammals, virtually every one of them (from buffalos to spider monkeys) had homosexual members.

Perhaps it is essential in evolution in some way?

[K^2]

QUOTE (asimov @ May 4 2007, 06:27)

Perhaps it is essential in evolution in some way?

Homosexual animals will have fewer, if any, offsprings. Therefore, I do not see any way how it can be related to evolution. If anything, evolution will tend against homosexuality.

[lesfleanut]

I don't mind it, as long as I don't have bang any men (that I don't want to).


edit: haha... totally forgot about the sloganizer I set earlier.

[AZSupraT]

Bringing up the homosexuality issue brings up the belief in God issue at the same time. Before I begin my text explaining this, I want you to understand that I am catholic (not a fanatic,and not a frequenter of church, but just as a choice of religion) and believe in God.

Well, God is something very relative when it comes to say that our future is certain, and is what God makes of it. That is a very false statement. Because if our futures were certain, God would make the queer a woman, and the lesbian a man. And of course God sent us to reproduce and live a happy life enjoying all that the earth has for us. But we're the ones to decide our choices in life. God doesnt send us with a specific goal. We make our goals in life, and play a small role in trying to make this a better world, and trying to influence others to do so as we did.

I'm not a fan of homosexuality, no. I'm totally against it. But what can we do to stop it? I think the homosexuals choose to be homos not because they want to, but because it's something they can't control. I don't know any homos, or neither do I talk in the internet (none that I have knowledge of).

I don't think homosexuality is correct, but it's not really up to me to decide if it's wrong or not. It's up to everyone's own personal choice of sexual orientation.

[LT.Diablo]

Well, I myself am a heterosexual, and I don't really see the want to be homosexual but if somebody is just born that way, why not let them "pursue" their own interests. Really, if it's not hurting anyone and they aren't flaunting their sexuality in offensive ways then what is the problem. Personally I think homosexuality is perfectly appropriate, while it may not be natural human instinct/behavior there is nothing primarily wrong with it in my opinion.

However, I'd just like to comment on some parts of your post..

QUOTE

They have certain ways of thinking that are a bit useful, such as decorating and style, though not neccesary for life.

Yes, they have certain ways of thinking, but I find it pretty stereotypical of you to think all homosexual people are good at decorating houses, or being stylists. Sure, many of them are, but I myself know a few gay guys, that go out and have a drink just like any straight guy, and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. They certainly wouldn't say "Hey that guy over there's cute" or "Oh my god your top doesn't go with your shoes", as really that's just a media portrayal of a minority.

QUOTE

...(except mentally challenged or mentally problematic people, or people who have different thoughts)....

Exactly. Different thoughts, not fundamental thoughts, but different lifestyle choices. Really, vegetarians are the same if you think about it, they have a different opinion on something, diet, just as homosexuals have different opinions on who they would favour as a sexual partner.

Now, another point is, should gay couples of either gender be allowed to adopt and raise children as their own. My personal opinion on this is, as long as the child is raised to know that they can choose their own orientation and lifestyle, without pressure from the media and or friends/peer groups, it's perfectly ok. It's effectively the same thing as a mother and father raising a child, only there are two fathers or two mothers but as long as they love the child it's basically the same thing.

Just my 2 cents, also, it's nice that you admitted that your views may be biased, as some people may interpret your post as being ever so slightly homophobic.

This post has been edited by LT.Diablo on Thursday, May 10 2007, 20:03

[Luke]

QUOTE (AZSupraT @ May 10 2007, 16:29)

Bringing up the homosexuality issue brings up the belief in God issue at the same time. Before I begin my text explaining this, I want you to understand that I am catholic (not a fanatic,and not a frequenter of church, but just as a choice of religion) and believe in God. Well, God is something very relative when it comes to say that our future is certain, and is what God makes of it. That is a very false statement. Because if our futures were certain, God would make the queer a woman, and the lesbian a man. And of course God sent us to reproduce and live a happy life enjoying all that the earth has for us. But we're the ones to decide our choices in life. God doesnt send us with a specific goal. We make our goals in life, and play a small role in trying to make this a better world, and trying to influence others to do so as we did. I'm not a fan of homosexuality, no. I'm totally against it. But what can we do to stop it? I think the homosexuals choose to be homos not because they want to, but because it's something they can't control. I don't know any homos, or neither do I talk in the internet (none that I have knowledge of). I don't think homosexuality is correct, but it's not really up to me to decide if it's wrong or not. It's up to everyone's own personal choice of sexual orientation.

You seem to have disregarded a lot of the topic to a certain extent, we've already covered the fact that homosexuality isn't a choice, you sort of caught on to that by saying it's something "they can't control", but then said it was an "own personal choice" at the end - it aint a choice if you can't control it. Did you mean it's upto everyone's personal opinion of orientation instead?

Of course God sent us to reproduce? Well, your religion probably says this - personally I haven't studied the bible and care not for it's content, but I'm prepared to tolerate fully peoples' religious beliefs - but at the end of the day people can still serve a purpose here on earth without reproducing.

Furthermore, by allowing gay adoption and whatnot they can help bring up kids. A recent study for the Canadian government by the way found that same-sex parents has no detriment to the kid's upbringing, this shouldn't come as any surprise but it's worth noting. Despite this, I confess that as things stand in the world I'd have to think seriously hard about whether or not I'd feel right adopting a kid with a male partner, that's my problem though.

As for you not knowing any homosexuals, maybe you should talk to some? You know where the PM button is?

[AZSupraT]

QUOTE

You seem to have disregarded a lot of the topic to a certain extent, we've already covered the fact that homosexuality isn't a choice, you sort of caught on to that by saying it's something "they can't control", but then said it was an "own personal choice" at the end - it aint a choice if you can't control it. Did you mean it's upto everyone's personal opinion of orientation instead?

Yeah, maybe the title interested me into creating a good post. I didn't appear to read on the other posts, but I understand your point. I meant to say it was something to do with each person, instead of a personal choice.

QUOTE

Of course God sent us to reproduce? Well, your religion probably says this - personally I haven't studied the bible and care not for it's content, but I'm prepared to tolerate fully peoples' religious beliefs - but at the end of the day people can still serve a purpose here on earth without reproducing.

Dont you think it's plausible that God wanted us all to reproduce, and influence other to maintain the world? Not that it's a main goal in life, but it's a goal after all. You just proved yourself by saying the gay are very interested in adoption, and want to have kids.

QUOTE

Furthermore, by allowing gay adoption and whatnot they can help bring up kids. A recent study for the Canadian government by the way found that same-sex parents has no detriment to the kid's upbringing, this shouldn't come as any surprise but it's worth noting.

That's why it's a goal in life to have kids, and influence them into creating a better world, or if possible, repeat your doings. In some way.

QUOTE

Despite this, I confess that as things stand in the world I'd have to think seriously hard about whether or not I'd feel right adopting a kid with a male partner, that's my problem though.

About adopting kids for homosexual couples, that would require some kind of voting to do so, involving the whole country population according to their own orientation. I would vote no, for these reasons.

Number One - it would influence the kid to become homosexual, and that would make him want to adopt. Those things could become bad as 90% of the gay population want a kid or kids, somehow.

and

Number Two - Wider array of the homosexual population would mean less reproduction, and more adoptions with lesser kids to be adopted, making for less human reproduction. That's just a myth, cause I doubt that would happen.

QUOTE

As for you not knowing any homosexuals, maybe you should talk to some? You know where the PM button is?

I wouldn't know to distinguish someone. And those who really are gay in here, are afraid, or refrain from saying so.

[TheJkWhoSaysNi]

QUOTE (AZSupraT @ May 11 2007, 00:02)

About adopting kids for homosexual couples, that would require some kind of voting to do so, involving the whole country population according to their own orientation. I would vote no, for these reasons. Number One - it would influence the kid to become homosexual, and that would make him want to adopt. Those things could become bad as 90% of the gay population want a kid or kids, somehow. and Number Two - Wider array of the homosexual population would mean less reproduction, and more adoptions with lesser kids to be adopted, making for less human reproduction. That's just a myth, cause I doubt that would happen.

Gay parents will have gay children... just like all straight parents have straight children the only difference is that a gay child with gay parents would probably be less afraid of coming out.

Look at the situation as a welfare issue. There are orphans who would love to be part of a family and there are couples (both straight and gay) out there who cant have children of their own but want to have a family. The solution is simple isn't it? Don't you think an adopted child would have a better life with a family that spending their childhood in a children's home?

Unless there is conclusive proof that gay people bringing up children has some negative effect (and moreso than children in orphanages..) I'm all for gay adoption.

[AZSupraT]

I didn't mean that, But it would actually influence the children and encourage the child to do the same.

[LT.Diablo]

QUOTE (AZSupraT @ May 11 2007, 02:22)

I didn't mean that, But it would actually influence the children and encourage the child to do the same.

[c=FF00FF]I disagree, because, if the parents brought up the child to know it's perfectly acceptable to be gay, as it is to be straight, and didn't pressure the child into either sexual orientation.[/color]

This post has been edited by LT.Diablo on Saturday, May 12 2007, 18:05

[AZSupraT]

QUOTE (LT.Diablo @ May 11 2007, 11:17)

QUOTE (AZSupraT @ May 11 2007, 02:22) I didn't mean that, But it would actually influence the children and encourage the child to do the same. I disagree, because, if the parents brought up the child to know it's perfectly acceptable to be gay, as it is to be straight, and didn't pressure the child into either sexual orientation.

I never said it was wrong. I said that the parents would encourage them to be homos too.

[Luke]

QUOTE (AZSupraT @ May 11 2007, 18:06)

QUOTE (LT.Diablo @ May 11 2007, 11:17) QUOTE (AZSupraT @ May 11 2007, 02:22) I didn't mean that, But it would actually influence the children and encourage the child to do the same. I disagree, because, if the parents brought up the child to know it's perfectly acceptable to be gay, as it is to be straight, and didn't pressure the child into either sexual orientation. I never said it was wrong. I said that the parents would encourage them to be homos too.

That's simply not true, you need to read the rest of this topic...

Sexuality has been proven time and time again to be something that can't be influenced by anyone else, and even so - I wouldn't try bring up a child of mine to be gay

[LT.Diablo]

QUOTE (Luke @ May 11 2007, 17:44)

QUOTE (AZSupraT @ May 11 2007, 18:06) QUOTE (LT.Diablo @ May 11 2007, 11:17) QUOTE (AZSupraT @ May 11 2007, 02:22) I didn't mean that, But it would actually influence the children and encourage the child to do the same. I disagree, because, if the parents brought up the child to know it's perfectly acceptable to be gay, as it is to be straight, and didn't pressure the child into either sexual orientation. I never said it was wrong. I said that the parents would encourage them to be homos too. That's simply not true, you need to read the rest of this topic... Sexuality has been proven time and time again to be something that can't be influenced by anyone else, and even so - I wouldn't try bring up a child of mine to be gay

I guess it depends on how moral the parents are, but really it's a question of how the parents raise the child, it''s possible the child will turn out homosexual anyway out of own personal choice.

This post has been edited by LT.Diablo on Saturday, May 12 2007, 18:06

[Cypress Hill]

As has been said a few times before, a person can't become hetero or homosexual by personal choice. They are born one way or another. This would mean someone with gay parents would be no more likely to be gay than one with straight parents. Gay parents cannot influence there kids to be gay, the same way straight parents can't influence their kids to be straight.

I don't see a problem with gay couples adopting kids. Its certainly better than growing up in an orphanage.

[LT.Diablo]

QUOTE (Cypress Hill @ May 11 2007, 20:50)

As has been said a few times before, a person can't become hetero or homosexual by personal choice. They are born one way or another. This would mean someone with gay parents would be no more likely to be gay than one with straight parents. Gay parents cannot influence there kids to be gay, the same way straight parents can't influence their kids to be straight. I don't see a problem with gay couples adopting kids. Its certainly better than growing up in an orphanage.

I suppose it's more likely they will become gay, seeing as they're being raised in a more homosexual enviroment but my previous point is still applicable.

This post has been edited by LT.Diablo on Saturday, May 12 2007, 18:07

[Cypress Hill]

QUOTE (LT.Diablo @ May 12 2007, 15:40)

QUOTE (Cypress Hill @ May 11 2007, 20:50) As has been said a few times before, a person can't become hetero or homosexual by personal choice. They are born one way or another. This would mean someone with gay parents would be no more likely to be gay than one with straight parents. Gay parents cannot influence there kids to be gay, the same way straight parents can't influence their kids to be straight. I don't see a problem with gay couples adopting kids. Its certainly better than growing up in an orphanage. I suppose it's more likely they will become gay, seeing as they're being raised in a more homosexual enviroment but my previous point is still applicable.

If gay people are born gay and straight people are born straight, then a person's upbringing would have no effect on their orientation, since their orientation was determined before they were born.

Of course, it may be possible that environmental factors do effect a person's orientation, in which case children raised by homosexuals might be more likely to be gay, but I don't think it has been proven that environmental factors can affect a person's orientations.

[LT.Diablo]

QUOTE (Cypress Hill @ May 12 2007, 17:25)

QUOTE (LT.Diablo @ May 12 2007, 15:40) QUOTE (Cypress Hill @ May 11 2007, 20:50) As has been said a few times before, a person can't become hetero or homosexual by personal choice. They are born one way or another. This would mean someone with gay parents would be no more likely to be gay than one with straight parents. Gay parents cannot influence there kids to be gay, the same way straight parents can't influence their kids to be straight. I don't see a problem with gay couples adopting kids. Its certainly better than growing up in an orphanage. I suppose it's more likely they will become gay, seeing as they're being raised in a more homosexual enviroment but my previous point is still applicable. If gay people are born gay and straight people are born straight, then a person's upbringing would have no effect on their orientation, since their orientation was determined before they were born. Of course, it may be possible that environmental factors do effect a person's orientation, in which case children raised by homosexuals might be more likely to be gay, but I don't think it has been proven that environmental factors can affect a person's orientations.

I don't really see how somebody can be born a certain orientation, seeing as in the womb and such you have no pre-conception of other human beings. The point I'm trying to make won't be explained very well seeing as I'm not too good with words, but basically, people haven't always been homosexuals, because as pointed out in the first post, there is no natural way to reproduce if you are homosexual.

So, at some point, people began being gay and then other people were born and if they felt so inclined they would become homosexual. Some people say "Oh I've known I was gay since I was born" but really you don't, personally I think it's determined in your teenage years, as your hormones are changing and your feelings towards other people become more prominent. Again, that point probably could be made in much better detail but I'm not the most eloquent wordsmith.

This post has been edited by LT.Diablo on Saturday, May 12 2007, 18:10