[Iminicus]

I've done something I have never done before. I started a debate in D&D and used sources, quotes, etc to back up my position, yet, all the replies have been how people feel. I know it is a debate but I presented how I wanted the debate to be constructed and the flow, yet, all I got was 'I feel...' 'My opinion based on how I feel...'. Or 'Not constitutional...' but no reason to support.

This pisses me off. How can I reasonably rebuttal someone's opinion? Or someone's views which incites a law or legal document but doesn't link to that law/document or any legal precedent relating to it?

[Iminicus]

Double Post, I know.

This is really pissing me off. I am in a discussion with Irviding. He keeps talking but won't reply with any supporting evidence to what he says. I keep asking for it but he either can't support himself, won't support himself or realizes his position can't be support.

I, on the other hand, am backing what I say with numerous links from numerous sources. Yet, am told I am wrong, even though the evidence I find supports my side and not his. Since, this is in the debates and discussion forum, is it not acceptable to expect the same level of input in rebuttals as I am putting into what I say?

[lil weasel]

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 04:54)

This is really pissing me off. I am in a discussion with Irviding.

You don't have discussions with Him.
He tells you what to believe, and you bow and say, "Yes Sir", as:
You can't convince him of anything.
You can't prove anything to him.
You just state your point and take the ad hominem that he will eventually pile on you for not moving to his side of things.
His winning argument is "Prove It", which you can never do to his acceptance.

[Naomi]

Always one to go with the flow, I'll weigh in on the words such as "rape" and "gay". I see the word 'rape' thrown around a lot. I understand context and it would appear that most who use it, understand it too, I know this because I've yet to have a member use the words 'rape' and 'Naomi' in the same sentence. They know saying to me "I totally raped you" or "I'm going to rape you" is going to go down like a lead balloon and be misinterpreted in written form. This isn't self censorship, it's self regulation, an exercise in context and sensitivity.
I once had to call my son out on using the word 'gay'.
"OMG that is so gay!".
I said to him "Mate, I need you not to use the word 'gay' like that anymore, because gay people have enough problems to contend with without you throwing that word around like being gay is a negative or as if it doesn't mean anything."
He was like "Oh sh*t mum! I'm sorry!"
I said "It's cool, you're not a bad person, you just need to think more about what you say."

Let me add that the act of sexual assault isn't unique to women and girls. Male rape by other men (and usually heterosexual) is one of the most taboo and under reported crimes in the world. But it happens a hell of a lot more than we realize.
People tend to make jokes or use it in slang as a defense mechanism, to distance themselves from being vulnerable to the crime (prison rape jokes).
The myths surrounding female rape, such as :She was asking for it because: She dressed a certain way / Walked outside at a certain time / had a certain lifestyle are not only used by men, but also by women, again, to distance themselves from the possibility of being a victim "That happens to that type of woman and as such it will never happen to me."

In no other crime do you find 'victim blaming'. A man wearing a $3000 suit & expensive jewelry/watch" who gets mugged won't be told "Well you shouldn't have flashed your wealth in general public". A Porsche owner gets violently carjacked and you won't hear "Well that's what you get for driving around in a Porsche!". Home invaded and raped? No mention of the state of the art home entertainment system, but there'll be plenty of blame on the woman for "not leaving quickly enough".

When you point out that the average age and time of a survivor and location as being 35 - 60years old at 4pm in the afternoon, they break out into a sweat or deny even the facts.
The other major problem with throwing around the word 'rape' is that psychologically, rapists truly believe that all men think like them. So when they see guys using the word as slang, they feel it justifies their mentality.
Now the average guy sees an attractive woman and might think "She's hot, I'd like to have sex with her" and then either leaves it at that or approach her socially. A rapist on the other hand thinks "She'll do. I'll show that bitch."
Make no mistake, the problem isn't their testosterone levels or masculinity, the problem is in their mind. They hate women or see attacking women as a convenient way to bolster their self esteem and sense of self empowerment. Rape is used as a weapon, it's not sex based in genuine and mutual desire. It's not by accident that in war, rape is actively encouraged to demoralize a population (see the Congo).

Now don't beat yourself up for using the word 'rape', you're not a bad person for using it. Just be more aware of it's power.

As side note, there's been a broo-ha-ha over whether rape jokes are ever funny. Recently a comedian, Daniel Tosh, in the States got in hot water over saying to a heckler 'Wouldn't it be funny if you got raped right now? Wouldn't it be funny if 5 guys raped you right here?".
It wasn't funny, most people agree on that point, some even saw it as a passive aggressive threat. But then there are comedians like the late, great George Carlin, who would make rape jokes....at the expense of rapists. So context is key. A lot of people will scream "Political Correctness AAArrrgghhh!" (Which is ironic, I'm one of the politically incorrect people around). But these people fail to understand nuance, context, focus (on subject eg: rapist vs victim) and self evaluation (why am I thinking/saying this?).

I think I covered everything, I'll post again if I think of anything else or if I missed something.

Thanks for contributing to this everyone, it's great to see.

EDIT: Oh! I see what I forgot now...Which is worse Rape or Murder.
It's so complicated by factors such as the type of murder or rape, the severity, the age, gender, psychology of the victim and perpetrator combined with the social stigmas, legal system of the land, that it's impossible to say.
If a 14 year old girl is pack raped in Saudi Arabia, she'll probably be executed for adultery if the she reports the crime and loses. But if the same happens in Australia, she'll probably be hailed as hero for her courage in facing her attackers and withstanding the cruel cross examination of the defense. See? Context. Death might be better just depending on where you are in the world right now.

Someone mentioned that murder is more severely punished than rape and as such, must be viewed as worse. There's actually a very good reason why murder is nearly always more severely sentenced than rape. If rape sends you to prison for life, but murder for 20 years, a rapist will simply kill all his victims to guarantee no witnesses and risk a 20 year sentence instead of life if caught.

Murder would be considered worse in that there's no coming back. There's no voice for the victim and no way for the victim to identify the attacker (leading to a cold case). Rape could be considered worse in it's ongoing ramifications; Unwanted pregnancy, disease, social stigmas, unjust legal system, sterility and mutilation, lack of counselling facilities, psychological trauma etc.

Though I will say, that the stories of girls and women who've survived rape and been brave enough to stand up and speak about it (especially in countries where women are treated like little more than breeding cattle) have always, in my mind, shown me just how extraordinary people's inner strength can be no matter what's been thrown at them.

This post has been edited by Naomi on Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 08:03

[Naomi]

El Zilcho has a good point about doormats vs. douchebags
He mentions that not making any effort whatsoever when socializing in the company of women, looking disinterested generally works.
I call this "Calming the f*ck Down."

Men who run around like over excited puppies are bloody irritating.
Stop chasing, start relaxing.
Getting in people's face just looks weak and desperate.
Women in their 20's date all sorts of men, they're not looking for 'Mr.Right, they're looking for 'Mr.Right Now'. So douchebags always get a test run. They generally outgrow those types, the drama loses it's appeal.

Someone here mentioned "Nice Guys". Can't find the quote dammit.
And I agree, running around telling everyone you're 'nice' doesn't make you 'nice'.
I could run around all day saying "I'm a super model! I'm a super model!" but it won't make it true.
Besides who the hell wants to be thought of as 'nice' anyway? It's the equivalent of "She has a really 'nice' personality". You just know it means she's morbidly obese and boring.

These self appointed 'nice guys' and their incessant whining on how no girl will sleep with them, putting them in the dreaded 'friendzone'.
Hey pal! My genuine friendship isn't some sh*tty consolation prize, you should accept it as it is or walk away. Your call.
Have you noticed how they always say "It's the same EVERY time"..?
It's the same EVERY time because they refuse to adapt their behaviour, they expect the entire female population to adapt to them.

[finn4life]

QUOTE (Naomi @ Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 17:38)

The myths surrounding female rape, such as :She was asking for it because: She dressed a certain way / Walked outside at a certain time / had a certain lifestyle are not only used by men, but also by women, again, to distance themselves from the possibility of being a victim "That happens to that type of woman and as such it will never happen to me."

Those "Myths" seem to be pretty uncommon these days, some older people still think that way.
You are right in that people who say those things are distancing themselves in a way, everybody does that with everything, you hear someone dies on the news and it's not a big deal "Wow some people are unlucky" nobody ever stops to think "Hey that could have been me" until it happens to someone close by, say a friend dies in an accident, people instantly think "sh*t! I almost got in the car with him that night". Distancing is natural, the jokes may be a part of it.

QUOTE

As side note, there's been a broo-ha-ha over whether rape jokes are ever funny. Recently a comedian, Daniel Tosh, in the States got in hot water over saying to a heckler 'Wouldn't it be funny if you got raped right now? Wouldn't it be funny if 5 guys raped you right here?". It wasn't funny, most people agree on that point, some even saw it as a passive aggressive threat. But then there are comedians like the late, great George Carlin, who would make rape jokes....at the expense of rapists. So context is key. A lot of people will scream "Political Correctness AAArrrgghhh!" (Which is ironic, I'm one of the politically incorrect people around). But these people fail to understand nuance, context, focus (on subject eg: rapist vs victim) and self evaluation (why am I thinking/saying this?).

The Tosh joke was pretty bad, very bad actually, in some instance it could be funny as in "Holy crap that was brutal" but otherwise that was terrible, the context was wrong as you mentioned, but "Were rape jokes ever funny?" Well yes and no, it really depends on the person, more serious people who can't take a joke/appreciate a joke and take everything to heart probably don't think so.

QUOTE

Women in their 20's date all sorts of men, they're not looking for 'Mr.Right, they're looking for 'Mr.Right Now'. So douchebags always get a test run. They generally outgrow those types, the drama loses it's appeal. Someone here mentioned "Nice Guys". Can't find the quote dammit. And I agree, running around telling everyone you're 'nice' doesn't make you 'nice'. I could run around all day saying "I'm a super model! I'm a super model!" but it won't make it true. Besides who the hell wants to be thought of as 'nice' anyway? It's the equivalent of "She has a really 'nice' personality". You just know it means she's morbidly obese and boring.

It is true haha, the guys who are self-proclaimed nice guys actually annoy the sh*t out of me, usually they are not nice guys and call anyone they are jealous of douchebags/assholes and come to the conclusion girls only date those types, maybe at a younger age like mentioned yes it is true to a point, but i think it comes down to who you sort of connect with and have the balls to ask out, if a "Douchebag" asks a girl out first (especially younger girls who are more willy nilly), well that's not because girls only date "douchebags", it's more likely that the "Douchebag" (If they really are one) is more self-absorbed and confident while the self proclaimed Nice guy is too much of a pussy.

QUOTE

These self appointed 'nice guys' and their incessant whining on how no girl will sleep with them, putting them in the dreaded 'friendzone'. Hey pal! My genuine friendship isn't some sh*tty consolation prize, you should accept it as it is or walk away. Your call. Have you noticed how they always say "It's the same EVERY time"..? It's the same EVERY time because they refuse to adapt their behaviour, they expect the entire female population to adapt to them.

Friend-zone does exist, and that's because of two reasons i think and the first reason is the pre-dominant by far.
1. Guy is attracted to the female and female is attracted back but too much of a pussy to step up and ask her out expecting her to make the first move when the guy is showing no indication of wanting to date her.

2. Guy is attracted to to the female and actually does try and make a move but the female doesn't want a relationship, i actually remember a friend of mine in high-school who hung out with the same girl daily almost all the time and asked her out multiple times but she said she just wasn't attracted to him in that way.

Bear in mind this is basically a repeat of my last paragraphs...
And then the proclaimed "Friend-Zone" comes around to these, and once more number 1 is pre-dominant.

1. Guy is a self-proclaimed nice guy who is actually an ass or a pussy who is too scared to make a move and uses this as a pathetic excuse combined with girls only going for douchebags.

2. Have an excuse for not being with a girl, guys are a lot about having sex ect, and in a group if someone isn't in a relationship and everyone is, especially after a few beers the fun starts to be poked "Oh where's your girlfriend? Nevermind you're too much of an ugly c*nt" *Laughter* (Doesn't actually happen quite like that but just to illustrate the point).

Pretty much agreed on all of your points, but kept the quote train down a little.

QUOTE

I've done something I have never done before. I started a debate in D&D and used sources, quotes, etc to back up my position, yet, all the replies have been how people feel. I know it is a debate but I presented how I wanted the debate to be constructed and the flow, yet, all I got was 'I feel...' 'My opinion based on how I feel...'. Or 'Not constitutional...' but no reason to support. This pisses me off. How can I reasonably rebuttal someone's opinion? Or someone's views which incites a law or legal document but doesn't link to that law/document or any legal precedent relating to it?

Often why i don't debate on the internet, that and i am not that great at it, but this happens to me in real life, i try and prove something to someone and they just go "Yeah yeah whatever" and stick to their own opinion, it's ignorant as hell.

EDit f*cked up my quotes, fixing now.

This post has been edited by finn4life on Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 09:17

[Robinski]

While we're on it, can we cut out the use of the "female". When you're talking about people, it tends to be an adjective not a noun, and even then only really in official, medical or scientific contexts. It just comes off as weird when guys talk about "females" rather than women or girls, like they're some sort of different species. It screams of dehumanisation and othering, and just sounds creepily clinical.

As for "Nice Guys", they tend to be delusional assholes. Their attitudes towards women tell of a bigger problem with their world view. It's an overused cliche to phrase it like this, but they view women as machines that if you put enough kindness tokens in to sex should pop out. What they don't realise is that social relationships aren't transactions. You can spot these sort of people by how they react to someone asking them to do them a favour: if they think about how it can benefit them later on, rather than helping their friend out, they're probably a "nice guy".

[Tyler]

Thing about 'nice guys' is most of them think girls (sex, but I'm going to give the ones who say they just want a girlfriend the benefit of the doubt) are the be-all, end-all problem solvers, and that all their life's issues will be solved with the addition of a girl who understands how nicehe is. That's what I've encountered whenever someone says they're a 'nice guy' anyway.

Anyway, to accentuate the current trend in this channel, you gotta love those dudes that call you a raging dickrider for liking pop music that isn't male vocalist.

[*MURDOC*]

QUOTE (Tyler @ Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 04:45)

Anyway, to accentuate the current trend in this channel, you gotta love those dudes that call you a raging dickrider for liking pop music that isn't male vocalist.

Or any music for that matter.


"WHADDAYAGAY!?"

[finn4life]

QUOTE (Robinski @ Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 20:33)

While we're on it, can we cut out the use of the "female". When you're talking about people, it tends to be an adjective not a noun, and even then only really in official, medical or scientific contexts. It just comes off as weird when guys talk about "females" rather than women or girls, like they're some sort of different species. It screams of dehumanisation and othering, and just sounds creepily clinical.

No offence, but i disagree with this.

I use "female" because it encompasses all whereas "girl" sounds young, chick sounds like i am talking about some hottie that just walked past and "woman" is usually older, yes i do understand that the use of "female" does sound kind of like i am talking about an object but i know you know that's not what i mean and using that term also makes it clear who i am talking about, not just one sub-group of a sex, but rather the whole sex.

I am kind of used to that sort of terminology still from schooling because answers had to be sciency sounding, and i do realize that i didn't use male in my sentences while still using female, and that is mostly because "guy" can be applied to most dudes.
But from now on i will use Male and Female.


Anyway, back to grumpy old forumers



How is facebook accountable for cyber bullying? This is f*cking stupid, if you don't want to get bullied how about not making a page with millions of people viewing it where anonymous people can insult you for no real reason.
It's like saying cars cause crashes, yes cars are involved in crashes and crashes (with cars) would not occur without cars, but ultimately it's the drivers fault if they crash, to combat this they could drive slower to minimize the risk of crashing, just like you and your page can disappear (and get off my news feed because i don't give a sh*t) and avoid getting picked on by randoms.

[lil weasel]

QUOTE (Robinski @ Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 09:33)

While we're on it, can we cut out the use of the "female". When you're talking about people, [...] when guys talk about "females" rather than women or girls, like they're some sort of different species. It screams of dehumanisation and othering, and just sounds creepily clinical. [...]

It means they will settle for anything in a skirt (or pants suit), regardless of age or species.

[Rebel]

QUOTE (finn4life @ Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 11:14)

How is facebook accountable for cyber bullying? This is f*cking stupid, if you don't want to get bullied how about not making a page with millions of people viewing it where anonymous people can insult you for no real reason. It's like saying cars cause crashes, yes cars are involved in crashes and crashes (with cars) would not occur without cars, but ultimately it's the drivers fault if they crash, to combat this they could drive slower to minimize the risk of crashing, just like you and your page can disappear (and get off my news feed because i don't give a sh*t) and avoid getting picked on by randoms.

I would say Facebook is kind of accountable because since its started it has become super f*cking easy to cyber bully people than ever before. Now I wouldn't say its just FB fault, since its the entire use of the internet, the fact that one can become invisible yet say such nasty things to people and get away with it. I think the cliché here is ''with great power comes great responsibility'' I think as a whole communication sites should be more willing to share such cyber bullying cases to the local police or whoever else so that if the person who is being cyber bullied can actually prosecute. The law has just not caught up with the technology. I think only recently there have been 2 actual court cases that have ended with the person bullying/trolling the internet have been given a sentence.
Like I said, its not Facebooks fault I think people just expect more from a communications website on a whole.

[WF the Hobgoblin]

Cyberbullying man, what a load of crap. I despair at the gradual p*ssyfication of humanity.

People that consider themselves to be "cyberbullied" probably shouldn't be on the internet.

[Gareth Croke]

On that Cyberbullying theme, what is p*ssing me off right now, is this over use of the term 'Troll' when describing anyone who has an opinion on anything no matter how small or insignificant, it's also overused with folk crying it when someone is having a joke around either verbal or practical.

Example 1, Little Johnny post on a forum "I like Cheese". Big Bobby replies "wat r u lactoes intolorant fag", Little Johnny or other random person lets call them Silly Sally says "TROLL GTFO". Casual viewer with a brain cell thinks to themselves "Silly Sally can't take joke"

Example 2, Little Johnny who has developed a sense of humour decides to have a little laugh and post the following "I've just been in to the local Wal-Mart and they were offering pre-orders on GTA:V for $10", Big Bobby replies "TROLLFAG" (Big Bobby is homophobic it seems), Silly Sally "TROLL GTFO" (Sill Sally isn't very bright and is very repetitive). Casual Viewer with a brain cell thinks to themselves "LOL, PWNED"

Example 3, Little Johnny joins Facebook and says "Hai", Big Bobby replies "TROLLFAG u r a nazigayfag" (Big Bobby has serious issues it seems), Silly Sally says "TROLL GTFO" (By this point it seems that Silly Sally will be getting banned as it's probably either a) a Bot or b) an idiot with no clear thought). Casual Viewer with a brain cell thinks to themselves "Why am I looking at Facebook"

So to wrap up, enough with the Troll sh*t.

[GTA_stu]

TROLL GTFO! U FAG!

[WF the Hobgoblin]

QUOTE (Gareth Croke @ Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 19:23)

[color=b0aca8][font=tahoma]On that Cyberbullying theme, what is p*ssing me off right now, is this over use of the term 'Troll' when describing anyone who has an opinion on anything no matter how small or insignificant, it's also overused with folk crying it when someone is having a joke around either verbal or practical.

I have a similiar issue with the overuse of the word 'ignorant' on the internet.

[TheGreatGig23]

One thing that really pissed me off happened in work yesterday. We were seriously busy, perhaps more than normal, and there were a few minutes left until four o'clock, the time at which one of the women on the tills was due to finish. As soon as the clock struck four, she logged of her machine and walked away leaving me alone on the till with at least ten or more customers waiting. Is it just me or is that a really sh*tty thing to do?

I understand that she was meant to finish but she would have been there for maybe 5-10 minutes extra, not even that if she was quicker. She'd only done a three hour shift so it wasn't like she was exhausted from a hard days work (she doesn't really do much anyway so that's never a problem). There have been many times where I have stayed to help her out and I do the same for everyone else, even doing so after working a 12-hour shift.

My hand had been trapped between a heavy steel cage and a metal doorway earlier that day and was (still is) pretty messed up so I was a bit slower on the tills than usual so I really could have done with the help. We were short staffed so there wasn't anyone else to call on. All this added together made me want to scream at her. I eventually got the queue down after about 15 minutes which is far too long for customers to be waiting, demonstrated by the fact that some just walked away.

Lazy f*cks like that really annoy me.

[trip]

Ok Ok OK...I'm going to bitch about people bitching about bullying. Bullying has been around forever. I think this current hot button topic of bullying just proves my point that society is becoming more and more pussified. Are kids just not taught to stand up for themselves anymore? Bullies are usually bullies because they are simpletons - standing up to one and out witting one is/should be easy.

[finn4life]

QUOTE (Rebel @ Sunday, Jul 29 2012, 01:17)

QUOTE (finn4life @ Saturday, Jul 28 2012, 11:14) How is facebook accountable for cyber bullying? This is f*cking stupid, if you don't want to get bullied how about not making a page with millions of people viewing it where anonymous people can insult you for no real reason. It's like saying cars cause crashes, yes cars are involved in crashes and crashes (with cars) would not occur without cars, but ultimately it's the drivers fault if they crash, to combat this they could drive slower to minimize the risk of crashing, just like you and your page can disappear (and get off my news feed because i don't give a sh*t) and avoid getting picked on by randoms. I would say Facebook is kind of accountable because since its started it has become super f*cking easy to cyber bully people than ever before. Now I wouldn't say its just FB fault, since its the entire use of the internet, the fact that one can become invisible yet say such nasty things to people and get away with it. I think the cliché here is ''with great power comes great responsibility'' I think as a whole communication sites should be more willing to share such cyber bullying cases to the local police or whoever else so that if the person who is being cyber bullied can actually prosecute. The law has just not caught up with the technology. I think only recently there have been 2 actual court cases that have ended with the person bullying/trolling the internet have been given a sentence. Like I said, its not Facebooks fault I think people just expect more from a communications website on a whole.

Yes but this page is only bitching about cyber-bullying because her daughter has a disease and to be honest looks like a mutant in comparison to other human beings, not being mean, that's the fact.
Then the mother makes this page with over 2 million likes from strangers and posts photos of her daughter (to fulfill herself with likes i think) allowing anyone to comment, of course people are going to say mean things, and then she allows her daughter to see all of these things which is demonstrated by the videos she has made.

This is really stupid in my opinion, if she had a regular facebook with only people she knew and was getting constantly bullied i could understand, but not when you are stupid enough to make a page and open yourself to critique.

[trip]

Its really hard for me not to bump this topic daily.


The term "Man Cave". Can it just be done with? It is f*cking gay and way beyond over used at this point.