[Cerbera]

People who've followed the Myriad Islands Railway topic might already know about the proposed MISA tunnel network. If you don't, I have been developing ideas for it with the help of many other MISA contributors, including:

• Steve-M
• Illspirit
• Respawn
• JasonB
• GTAuron
• Snow Racer
• OrR

Might be some other people too.

The current plan for the tunnels is this, from January 2007:

1024 x 1024, 114kB.

We are expecting there to be a tunnel from Necrosis to illRES to be made by Respawn. He's agreed that we can connect into this tunnel so we have a completely integrated tunnel network.

The green tunnel was going to be made by JasonB since it starts under his Port Orchid island. However, he has a lot of other commitments and I'm thinking maybe he should only need to make the most Eastern section of it, so it clears the West coast of his island. Then someone else can make the rest of the green route.

The grey route is owned by Snow Racer. It has been planned for a very long time. Snow Racer owns the lots next to "A" and "B" on the map. He already has a good idea of how the tunnels will come up onto the surface.

Now, this leaves a lot of work still, including three complex interchanges:

1. Connecting green tunnel with Necrosis-illRES tunnel via one of these (don't know it's proper name) or a Trumpet.
2. Connecting green tunnel with grey tunnel via Four Level Stack.
3. Connecting green tunnel with illSTA via Directional T.

I've recently contacted ParoXum about building a substantial amount of the tunnel network. You might have seen some work he's posted in PPT or visited his GTA modding blog. His work is very impressive and he's keen to take on this project. He has agreed to make a "proof of concept" demo for his idea of how we can get tunnels working nicely underwater, which is the first step towards deciding whether this plan can become reality.

This post has been edited by Cerbera on Friday, Jan 26 2007, 07:27

[lord fido]

I totally agree. I think you should also link it to Grand Tani.

[ParoXum]

QUOTE (lord fido @ Oct 5 2006, 23:54)

I think you should also link it to Grand Tani.

For the moment, we must work step by step.

First tests phase. And once Everything is ok, doing tunnels will be done extremely quickly. I just need to spline it, ad details junctions,

But as Cerbara said, i'll tests this evening with a simple blocky tunnel around illcom (for my personnal test) and'll keep you informed of my progressions. I hope this idea will be considered as Official



Edit : Some after tests, debriefing.

1st thing that will need to be sorted out, is the seabed. MISA never had one, and once there's tunnels underwater, we'll need at least a basic seabed around them to hide the structures.

Second thing, my water.dat tests, according to what steve-m said into his excellent topic about it, the ocean is infinite on z axis, and for a tunnel, it's impossible to get trough the ocean when it's infinite.

Let me explain with pics :


That's what we can see when entering the generic tunnel entrance i've done, we're clearly underwater there, but still under a unassigned water square. So there's no problems.


And here's what happens when going under a square of water defined as ocean, with the flag "1". Well, we can move as in surface, but the ocean deepish effect is omnipresent.


To resolve the problem, we only have to change the flag to "3", considering the tunnel will not go more than 10 units underwater, this flag give us the possibility to disable deep water effect under a defined square, and to keep our deep effect trough 3 to 5 meter underwater. It's less than i wish to have but that's the only option we have for the moment. Every other square of the sea will keep the 1 flag, so we can use a lower seabed.

As GTASA don't have anny underwater tunnels, rockstar didn't make any flag for 20 to 30 meters underwater, wich would have been easier for us, and more realistic for the seabed. Maybe i'll find other tweaks.

But if we do tunnels, we must keep in mind that the first think to get ingame before them is seabed, at least, that's what I think. We can do the opposite, first the tunnels, and finish with seabed creation but...

Tell me.

This post has been edited by ParoXum on Friday, Oct 6 2006, 23:30

[Cerbera]

Apparently using this flag stops the water above from having waves. It effectively turns that square of ocean into a shallow pond and the water effects get turned off for a small range of depths. However, the water effects are present again beneath this depth.

This is rather dissapointing but it is not the end of the story. It might be possible to alter the depth where water is disabled through memory hacking, and maybe re-enable the waves on its surface.

QUOTE (ParoXum)

ParoXum says: i wonder if using a pool layer from flag 2 under a layer of flag 1 infinite would work as if the bottom layer take the priority on the first one. Needs lots of testings ParoXum says: there's lots of possibilities Cerbera says: and if we have the tunnels far below the sea bed, we could define the second layer of water beneath the sea bed so nobody would see it while swimming

I've asked ParoXum to test what happens when different types of water are layered, such as this. Maybe we can just use a hidden second layer of water...we shall see.

Respawn
Spoke with him about connecting his tunnel(s) into the West section of the green tunnel. We aren't sure exactly how it will be set up yet, but we brainstormed some ideas.

He's going to make a top-down picture of Necrosis showing what's there and what he's planned to do. We'll work from there to figure out the best way to integrate it into the rest of the network.

Snow Racer
Having looked at the layout of illURB some more, I think the exit of the grey tunnel could be moved to a better place. I talked to Snow Racer about where I had in mind and he agrees. I'll draw it up somewhen and see what other people think.

JasonB

QUOTE (JasonB and Cerbera)

[03:55:13] Cerbera/Ben: since you have a lot of responsibilities outside of GTA modding, maybe it would be a good idea to take some off your plate? [03:55:31] Cerbera/Ben: for example, this modder could build illSTA [03:55:42] JasonB: Yeah, it would probably be for the best. [03:55:51] Cerbera/Ben: and if you did a short section of tunnel out of Port Orchid, he could connect into that and save you a lot of work [03:56:22] JasonB: If he is willing then I'll transfer the tunnel building responsibilities over to him.

Everything relies on getting underwater tunnels working. That will be the focus until there's a reliable prototype made.

This post has been edited by Cerbera on Saturday, Oct 7 2006, 03:01

[Cran.]

Looking quite good. Maybe this could open up some oppurtunities for some missions, like blowing up sections of the tunnel for some reason or another? That would be a fun mission Despite how annoying it would be after..

[ParoXum]

Iv' just made some more testing.

First

The way i explained to Cerbera on msn don't work. I've done two layers of water, one with infinite tag, and one other wiyh the pool/untextured @-6 units down. This don't work, because the main layer, wich have the flag 1 don't work like alpha textures layers as I thought, So, we keep a infinite depth.

Second and probably Last way to have tunnel's working.

Is to use differents layers of pool type, the first textured, and all the nexts untextured. Considering each layers has a depth of 6 units, we can superimpose some layers to keep the same depth of water on the top of the tunnel, and have a regular seabed possibility.

But as said before, using these layers has some disapointing effects, we don't have waves anymore, but i found some new now :

- When swimming underwater to -6 in the first layer's depth, once you approach the second layer surface, you'll be as if you were swimming out of water; So you have to plunge again into it to get underwater.

- When throwing a car or other dynamic objects into it, we get some weird effect due to the game's phisuc allowed for these layers; The car start drowning on the top of the first layer, till it meets the second one, and there's a certain pause between this time and the one the car restart drowning.

- !Then! once the car has reached the bottom of the second layer, if there's no other layers lower, it falls into the empty space under the map. This particular problem can be solved if we make the seabed imediatly in the bottom of the last lower layer of water

I'll take a video to let you see this in realtime

Edit : The no waves problem is fixed, it was not specified by default... Now it's ok, so that's a good point.

This post has been edited by ParoXum on Saturday, Oct 7 2006, 10:55

[steve-m]

I'm not up-to-date on this, but is it correct to assume there is no cull zone flag to get rid of the water? Also, what about faking the weather by using an interior timecyc entry?

I don't think we need multiple layers. The shallow water would only be a narrow stripe, directly above the tunnel. The possibility someone would want to randomly dive there deeper than 6 units is rather low.

[ParoXum]

Here's the vid, it'll help some of you understand what's going on with multiple layers.
http://www.closed-eyes-area.com/download/MISA_watertests.rar

And steve-m's right, but as we need a seabed, we have to do it at the same level approx. So doing a shallow layer 20 units upto the seabed collision would be weird when going under this layer of water we would fall onto the seabed directly

And that's also right for cullzons, i didn't find a way to do them apart leave blank zons w/out water.

This post has been edited by ParoXum on Saturday, Oct 7 2006, 11:49

[Mark]

Hmm...So really, as long as the tunnel goes under the ground whilst definately on land, and that area is culled from having ocean, THEN all that crap just gets thrown on top of it once it's under the sea bed, we got a working tunnel?

Hmm..I personally don't usually go diving when I use the game, but I know some people do a fair bit, so really I think we will need layers, but the odd replunging things gonna be odd...

[mickarrow]

I don't see any problems if this was for a straight tunnel. But for making the different water levels to follow the curve the tunnel makes, it's going to be quite an intensive piece of work. If someone's feeling called for that job, be my guest...

[Mark]

Good point, I don't even know much at all about water in this game, but I think I agree that curvy roads not good idea. Either that or find another way round it.

Hell, modding the exe and having a launcher may be easier.

[OrR]

QUOTE (ParoXum @ Oct 6 2006, 17:17)

QUOTE (lord fido @ Oct 5 2006, 23:54) I think you should also link it to Grand Tani. For the moment, we must work step by step.

You're probably right but it's also a good idea to do some thinking before beginning to build to be prepared for everything. So here is some more general brainstorming because it's the only way I can contribute to this.

When thinking about the route of the tunnel(s), there are several things to take into account.

First, it needs to make sense. It needs to take a route that is not already taken by other roads or at least needs to provide a faster, easier connection between two points or there would be no incentive for neither the player nor the traffic to take it. One way to achieve this is to make the tunnel cover the diagonals between the islands that are not already covered by bridges. The whole tunnel could more or less be the diagonal line from Port Orchid to illRES. Necessary modifications to the drawing provided by Cerbera would be moving the intersection with the illURB-illCOM route up a little, straightening out the route from PO to the illSTA intersection and maybe rotating/deforming that intersection a little.
Of course now we get a problem: Connecting to Necrosis. Since we've got no idea what Respawn has in mind over there, it's a little difficult to plan. If we could do what we wanted, it would probably make sense to add a T intersection at the upper right corner of Necrosis and make the connection to Necrosis come to the surface somewhere in the upper right quarter. (Or maybe even the lower left quarter which doesn't seem to be that well connected to the big traffic routes, yet.) It could even be a + intersection and connect to illURB at the other side which would get kind of complicated but on the other hand also make a lot of sense because it isn't that much further away. So there would be a Necrosis-illURB tunnel crossing with the illRES-PO tunnel beneath it.
How to connect GTI (if we ever want to)? Well, adding another intersection would make things even worse. But we've got one at pretty much the right spot already: Make the illSTA T-intersection a + intersection and you can connect GTI diagonally without too much of a problem. This wouldn't make sense for going from illURB to GTI but there is a bridge for that. It also wouldn't make sense for going from PO to GTI. What connection do we have planned for that route? However, it would nicely cover all the other routes from further away.

The other big thing to take into account is how to make such a huge tunnel system interesting. There has to be some entertainment under ground and it has to be more or less realistic. Is an underground rest stop with fast food restaurant and gas station realistic? Probably not or it would have to have a very effective ventilation system... Some sort of secret underground hideout wouldn't really be realistic but improve the tunnel a lot and provide a location for a mission. Can anyone think of something creative here? GTA isn't and shouldn't be reality but there would have be some pretty good explanation for something like that. How about a scandal where a bunch of workers building a new sewage pipe accidentally hit the tunnel and created a connection? You could hear about it on the radio news and also drive through it. This would probably have to be under Necrosis or close to one of the exits because the tunnel doesn't touch islands very often.
Grafiti, changing of architectural styles and construction sites would also help. Maybe even glass walls that let you see underwater life? No idea if the technology makes this possible. And, of course, big tunnels would also have a safety system with special escape routes etc.

This post has been edited by OrR on Tuesday, Oct 10 2006, 23:55

[lord fido]

Yeah. It gotta be faster than going on the surface.

[Cerbera]

I've asked ParoX to make a "test suite", which I guess it would consist of:

• the rough tunnel section, including:
  • a .dff;
  • a .txd;
  • a .ide;
  • and a .ipl;
• along with a new water.dat

People could install this into MISA to try out the different experiments ParoX has developed.

[Mark]

Good idea, a split of research over many people will get the job done faster.

I would have a play with it all, but i got no SA here I'll try remember to bring it up with me next time I'm back home.

@OrR: I do agree on a number of areas. The damn tunnel is under the surface wherever you go, so is not limited to travelling across sea only, which is kinda what the train does. As you say, for safety factors, I feel it should hug coastlines in a lot of places, and just spur out when needed, or at least run closer to coastlines.

Hmm...I know we already got one, but a SeaWorld connected to the tunnel under the water would be real cool Have the Stretch leading up to it as like a Semicircular glass walled tunnel, reinforced glass of course, with the road running on a slightly lower level, with plenty of crash barriers to prevent people going through glass lol.

Ah I'm just daydreaming But I love the idea about construction work.

[ParoXum]

A simple pack with all files needed to make your own opinion. This one uses a first layer textured, and a invisible layer 6 units under. Test this one First and post here your comments on this. Once this package has been tested succesfully by interested people, i'll give you a second one, like that this topic'll stay clean and easy to read/resume.

http://www.closed-eyes-area.com/download/M...tunnel.test.rar

[Cerbera]

Yesterday I installed MISA v0.5 but I'll be visiting a friend from Wednesday to Friday. Maybe this weekend I'll be able to install the demo and play around with it myself. I'm not sure about timecyc.dat modding but there's a few other layered water setups I'd like to try out.

What's the best tool for seeing the player's current coordinates in GTASA v1.01?


On October 7th I posted about a possible change to the illURB end of Snow Racer's grey tunnel route. Well, I've finally gotten round to making the plan for it now:

1024 x 1024, 94kB.

I think joining it onto the end of the West end of that 4-lane road across illURB will be better for a few reasons:

1. Since the tunnels are being expanded to 4 lanes, the current illURB exit will be a bottleneck.
2. There are no 4-lane roads near to the current illURB exit, so it will look very strange having a big freeway exiting into a twisty set of small roads.
3. The 4-lane road running across illURB looks a bit out of place, imho. Especially the way it terminates abruptly at either end. Using one end of the freeway tunnel exit would give it a really good reason to be there.

I ran this by Snow Racer in words and he agreed, so hopefully the plan is what he thought I was talking about!

What are other people's thoughts on it?

[GT-1]

Its good to see Myriad expanding with new ideas and modders, though its a shame that focus has once again been lost in other areas (i.e. train/lots). This looks to be moving at a decent pace though.

[lord fido]

QUOTE (GT-1 @ Oct 17 2006, 08:46)

Its good to see Myriad expanding with new ideas and modders, though its a shame that focus has once again been lost in other areas (i.e. train/lots). This looks to be moving at a decent pace though.

Lots are almost finished. But all i know about the trian is that its up and working.

[Mark]

Indeed. The train planning is all done, it's just being built. Take a looksie in the topic.