[AK-73]

QUOTE (Ben @ Jul 20 2006, 08:45)

Here's something for our resident EXE hackers to look into (another of AK's findings).  A bit of research will be required to make it work "perfectly", but it's a big start.  Thanks again Alex . EDIT - As for the world lighting - after talking to ModelingMan about it yesterday, we know where to look, but I'm not sure when we'll get around to fixing it.  We'll see what happens .

Well, if you can point me the directions, I'll have a look at it myself.

Alex

[Ben]

Did you not get my email the other day?

I'll talk to MM about it again when I get a chance and see how he thinks we should best proceed, especially as he knows the most about it. I'll be in touch .

[AK-73]

QUOTE (Ben @ Jul 22 2006, 01:14)

Did you not get my email the other day? I'll talk to MM about it again when I get a chance and see how he thinks we should best proceed, especially as he knows the most about it.  I'll be in touch .

You see, I've only been asking because I thought it might be easier for some of the guys if they already have an insight into the rendering mechanisms. I think I'm going to have a look at the stuff from the other side, trace the values that get loaded from timecyc,dat, and see what calculations are being done with them in both games before they get passed to d3d. Thanks though.

Alex

[Ben]

Ahh rightio, fair enough.

No worries .

[Ben]

Hmmm, this might be useful for controlling the drivers on the lift bridge (another goodie from AK) .

When all of this stuff from AK, and the work Hammer and MM are doing behind the scenes gets implemented into the next launcher update, um, well, let's just say it's going to be f*cking awesome .

EDIT - WOW and WOW !

Ben is excited!



This post has been edited by Ben on Friday, Jul 28 2006, 23:47

[Ben]

Alrightio, this is basically a continuation of the discussion which began with this post and continued down for the next 3 posts. For those of you who aren't familiar with it (and can't be bothered to click on the link), here's some brief details:

• ModelingMan is going to be researching how the EXE controls the rendering of PEDs in an attempt to be able to use the original GTAIII PED models
• I had the idea that it might be possible to use the GTAIII IMG to form the basis of an IMG for LC. The fact that ModelingMan had already disabled culling through the EXE (which meant that the original GTAIII world models could be used in LC) made me believe that this was a real possibility

So anyway, I've done some basic research and come to a few conclusions. After talking to Craig, I learned that the GTAIII vehicle models actually do work in LC without any modification, although due to the advanced VC engine, they lack reflections which can be added to our custom ones during the conversion process. Now I haven't looked into this at all, but I'm wondering if this is actually a TXD issue rather than a DFF issue - the vehicle TXDs in LC contain a reflection image which isn't in the GTAIII vehicle TXDs (as far as I'm aware, vehicle reflections in GTAIII were stored in particle.txd (in GTAIII\models)). If it is a TXD issue, it might be possible to incorporate a similar setup to GTAIII and include a reflection in particle.txd - this is just theory, and I haven't looked into this particular aspect, so I might be completely wrong .

That leads me to my next point - TXDs. As far as I can tell, the only difference between GTAIII and VC is in the the bits per pixel (I think that's what the bpp refers to ) and the fact that VC utilises compression. Judging from these differences, it should be possible to modify the EXE to tell it to read GTAIII-style TXDs (I think).

Now, after all of that has been sorted (assuming it can be), the bulk of the GTAIII IMG will have been covered - world models, vehicles, PEDs and TXDs. The next issue lies in the extra files present in VC, and these will need to be added (which means that some of them will be conversions we've done) - that is, the extra vehicles in VC, the bikes, helicopters, the skimmer and the extra weapons. As for the normal weapons, unless some way can be found to utilise the GTAIII models for those, then we'll have to use our conversions. The other files to add are the animation IFPs and the world collision data (COLs) - neither of these were present in the GTAIII IMG, and have to be converted because VC uses different animations, and the GTAIII world COLs were incomplete.

THAT should cover everything in the IMG I think. If I've forgotten something, please post here and let me know. I'd also like some feedback on what people think, especially from our EXE-experts (to let me know if this sounds viable). I know it's going to take a LOT of time and effort, but if it can be done, I'd like to see it. It will dramatically reduce the size of the download, although Craig doesn't want to make GTAIII a requirement of installing LC, so a custom IMG can be kept online when this is all done (assuming it can be) .

[DexX]

QUOTE (Ben @ Sep 23 2006, 00:16)

So anyway, I've done some basic research and come to a few conclusions.  After talking to Craig, I learned that the GTAIII vehicle models actually do work in LC without any modification, although due to the advanced VC engine, they lack reflections which can be added to our custom ones during the conversion process.  Now I haven't looked into this at all, but I'm wondering if this is actually a TXD issue rather than a DFF issue - the vehicle TXDs in LC contain a reflection image which isn't in the GTAIII vehicle TXDs (as far as I'm aware, vehicle reflections in GTAIII were stored in particle.txd (in GTAIII\models)).  If it is a TXD issue, it might be possible to incorporate a similar setup to GTAIII and include a reflection in particle.txd - this is just theory, and I haven't looked into this particular aspect, so I might be completely wrong .

i can shed some light on this. In gta3, the cars had no reflections in their own txd's because, as you said, the game simply used the image in the particle.txd. Only the reflection level was stored in the material of each model (which btw, was actually the "specular" level, of the standard RwMaterial).
In vice city, there is extra data attached to every material on the vehicle geometry, that contains the basic reflection parameters; what image to use, and the intensity of the reflection. since this data is stored per material, and the gta3 vehicles don't have it, it needs to be re-created; ie, re-exported. and when it loads the textures for the car, including the reflections, it checks the txd specified in the default.ide, so the reflections have to be stored in the txd defined there, for each car.

If your goal is to use the gta3 models right from the archive, without exporting them, and re-converting them, then i offer the following solution for those that could do it:
When a vehicle material is about to be rendered, check its specular value. any non-0 value means its been set by R* to be reflective (since the specular section of a RwMaterial in gta3 is used for reflections, 1.0 would be fullly reflective, 0 for none). if it has a non-0 value, then change the material type to MATFXEFFECTENVMAP, keep the same diffuse texture, set the reflection01 image in the particle.txd as the reflection map, and copy the specular value as the reflection level.

*flees*

[spaceeinstein]

QUOTE (Ben @ Sep 23 2006, 01:16)

That leads me to my next point - TXDs.  As far as I can tell, the only difference between GTAIII and VC is in the the bits per pixel (I think that's what the bpp refers to ) and the fact that VC utilises compression.  Judging from these differences, it should be possible to modify the EXE to tell it to read GTAIII-style TXDs (I think).

I thought Vice City can already read GTA3's TXD files.

[Ben]

@DexX - thanks for the info. I was talking to ModelingMan about this last night (a few hours after I posted that), and he said that the GTAIII global reflection can be used for the vehicles (which I think is something similar to what you're suggesting) .

@space - I really wouldn't know, but the few TXDs I looked at in the IMG have been changed to VC format, so I just assumed it wasn't possible. It doesn't really matter though - ModelingMan has a plan to make all of this (and much more) possible. I won't go into any more detail because it's not my place to say, but I can tell you that even though it's going to take a LOT of time, it'll be worth it in the end .

[kiwidesign]

Ben, about using III img file:

first, LC img has about 650-675 files more than III img
this isn't a problem with an automatic installer, but this is a lil' pain in the ass for manual install

the 2nd thing: I always knew that gtaIII had two img files, gta3.img and txd.img (actually works this way for me as well as described in most modding tutorials for gtaIII).
this mean that to have a full-usable gtaIII's gta3.img we should merge gta3.img and txd.img, isn't it?

[Ben]

Adding the files wouldn't really be a problem - I'm pretty sure you can add multiple files at once using IMG Tool. Maybe not - we can sort that out when we get to that stage . But an automatic installer would definitely be the way to go for it - that way, we could even get it in the order we want .

txd.img is simply all of the TXDs from III's gta3.img that have been reformatted to work most effectively with your graphics card/settings. You know when you first try to load up III after installing how it says something along the lines of "optimising your graphics to match settings" - that process creates txd.img. As far as I can tell, it's a workaround that R* came up with to combat some issue in the game engine - this was obviously fixed in the VC engine though, hence the missing txd.img. So in short, no, I don't see the need to use txd.img for LC .

[kiwidesign]

QUOTE (Ben @ Sep 26 2006, 07:01)

txd.img is simply all of the TXDs from III's gta3.img that have been reformatted to work most effectively with your graphics card/settings.  You know when you first try to load up III after installing how it says something along the lines of "optimising your graphics to match settings" - that process creates txd.img.  As far as I can tell, it's a workaround that R* came up with to combat some issue in the game engine - this was obviously fixed in the VC engine though, hence the missing txd.img.  So in short, no, I don't see the need to use txd.img for LC .

I know that, but I should re-install III to see how the gta3.img looks before 1st game load...

actually, once txd.img is created, gta3.img only contains lo-res textures

[Ben]

Yes, that's right - the TXDs in txd.img are simply uncompressed VC format textures. But we wouldn't be using those because they are too big - they'd have to be compressed first. However, if that's the case, then all TXDs would have to be added to the IMG. Oh, and by the way, the creation of txd.img has no effect on gta3.img.

I've been talking to DexX about this, and he mentioned that MM managed to make VC create a txd.img in the same way III did, although because the textures were already compressed, it made no difference. However, if we were to use III's gta3.img in LC and then told the game to create (and read during game-play the same way III did) a txd.img, we'd have the improved 32bit textures - hopefully the game could compress them as well, which would also cut down on the size LC takes up overall. For me, it's just a more efficient way of installing - it cuts down on conversion, and makes the most of the game engine, not to mention significantly reducing the size of the download. However, as mentioned earlier, I'm still quite happy with leaving a custom IMG (similar to the one we currently have) online for those of you who don't have III .

But, despite all of that, there's little if any difference in the way the textures look in-game (when comparing the 8bit and 32bit textures) - the real difference is in gameplay (the 32bit textures load faster and run smoother, not to mention the fact that they provide for more detail in-game).

[Ben]

Forget the idea of using III's IMG for LC - the TXDs present too much of a problem to make the process worthwhile. However, with MM's fantastic work, hopefully we'll be able to use more of the original III DFFs for LC .

[Ben]

QUOTE (Ben @ Jul 13 2006, 16:15)

I've got some goodies for those of you involved in developing the launcher, courtesy of AK-73.  I asked him over email about implementing these into the LC launcher, but he's a bit busy with his own mod, so these will have to be done by someone else.  But at least he has a lot of specific info for you . See the following posts: 1 2 3 4 5 They all address a range of EXE-related issues in the checklist, so another BIG thank-you to Alex . It'd also be great (and a HUGE favour to Alex) if anyone who knows how to alter the world lighting could post some info - that's something he's keen to learn how to mod (and it's also applicable to LC), and I think it's the least we can do to re-pay him for all of the wonderful work he's done for us. And if any of you come across my post about the SFX whilst looking over Alex's, don't worry - that info is included in the SFX download for the test7 package, courtesy of Modeling Man . EDIT - It might also be a good idea to check the mem hacking topic regularly for any more updates from AK .

QUOTE (Ben @ Jul 20 2006, 19:45)

Here's something for our resident EXE hackers to look into (another of AK's findings).  A bit of research will be required to make it work "perfectly", but it's a big start.  Thanks again Alex . EDIT - As for the world lighting - after talking to ModelingMan about it yesterday, we know where to look, but I'm not sure when we'll get around to fixing it.  We'll see what happens .

QUOTE (Ben @ Jul 28 2006, 16:22)

Hmmm, this might be useful for controlling the drivers on the lift bridge (another goodie from AK) . When all of this stuff from AK, and the work Hammer and MM are doing behind the scenes gets implemented into the next launcher update, um, well, let's just say it's going to be f*cking awesome . EDIT - WOW ! Ben is excited!

Here's some stuff that still has to be organised - the links all address a range of EXE-related fixes we still have to implement.

But I found a nice (late) Christmas present in my email inbox this morning, courtesy of AK - a world lighting fix!

Originally, he'd simply increased the blue values in timecyc.dat, which worked, but also affected all the whites in-game - they were no longer a "true" white. However, he has presented an alternative solution - since red and green mixed makes yellow, by reducing those values, the yellowish lighting in LC can be reduced. You can grab the fix here, and check out these comparison pics:
Original VC Tint vs GTA3-style Tint.

I'm not sure on the exact functions of the ASI or the CFG - AK could tell you more if you're interested Seems AK has already posted a brief description here . To install it, simply extract it over your LC folder.

I'll whack it in an update package sometime soon (with all of the other stuff that I need to compile too) .

This post has been edited by Ben on Tuesday, Dec 26 2006, 23:50

[kiwidesign]

Ben, I tried to download the Lighting Fix but it don't seem to be on the server

I got the same "not found" error for other files you uploaded recently in the same folder...

[Ben]

Oh yeah . I removed a lot of the stuff from my FTP folder - everything you need is in the 2.7up package which can normally be found in the pinned Updates topic.

Sorry about that .

[kiwidesign]

don't worry

I just copied the updated files in the LC folder, so I think the problem is solved...
really I haven't yet checked the fixed lighting, i'll do it tomorrow


not sure... but I think in a couple of days italian.gxt should be ready!

[AK-73]

QUOTE (Ben @ Dec 26 2006, 23:44)

Here's some stuff that still has to be organised - the links all address a range of EXE-related fixes we still have to implement. But I found a nice (late) Christmas present in my email inbox this morning, courtesy of AK - a world lighting fix! Originally, he'd simply increased the blue values in timecyc.dat, which worked, but also affected all the whites in-game - they were no longer a "true" white.  However, he has presented an alternative solution - since red and green mixed makes yellow, by reducing those values, the yellowish lighting in LC can be reduced.

That's however not what VC:Weather does. The above has just been a consideration for workaround. With VC:Weather modders can do the same thing GTA3 does: do a transparent overlay over the entire world after after everything is rendered. The problem was that VC didn't have the RGBA values that are at the end of each timecyc.dat line, obviously entries that have been added shortly before the game was completed (as the photos on the back cover of my GTA3 game do not have the tint).

So what does VC:Weather do (shameless spam to follow... )? It does lay likewise an overlay over the entire world and uses values that it takes from its config file. Handily for the LC project the default config file has already the default GTA3 values (mainly because they're good starting values for my own mod). So then all that is left is to adjust at least the obj_amb of VC's timecyc.dat (which did not exist in GTA3). Tracking the workings of the GTA3 exe resulted in me discovering that the corresponding values in GTA3 are calculated from the ambient rgb values. GTA3 takes these values, multiplies them first with 1.3 then and then with 1.44something for a net multiplier of 1.8something. The timecyc.dat that I sent Ben has corresponding values for the object ambient light data, so in effect by default VC:Weather gives an exact approximation (minus rounding errors) of GTA3 lighting if the aforementioned timecyc.dat is used in conjunction with it - at least in theory. I cannot get LC to run at the moment, so I can't compare screenshots for myself.

What VC:Weather in its final form *also* does is to enable full configuration of both VC weather tables. Again handily for the LC folks, I have already included the original GTA3 weather states; just comment them in and the VC values of table 2 out (not supported yet in the version Ben has). Of less interest to your project might be that the mod also allows for customizable random weather and that it allows to customize rain settings. With that it is possible to configure the speed of the falling rain (among other things), so if anyone wants to use that for a snow mod, it's entirely possible.

I need to write some readme for the mod and will upload it tomorrow. I'll include the source code too - so if you don't want to include the mod into LC itself, you can check what the mod does and re-write it partially yourself.

QUOTE

You can grab the fix here, and check out these comparison pics: Original VC Tint vs GTA3-style Tint. I'm not sure on the exact functions of the ASI or the CFG - AK could tell you more if you're interested Seems AK has already posted a brief description here .  To install it, simply extract it over your LC folder. I'll whack it in an update package sometime soon (with all of the other stuff that I need to compile too) .

I hope the above was informative enough for the moment. I'll post the full mod tomorrow if all goes well. It's part of my trying to make VC more configurable for modders, especially for those working on total conversions. Next will be VC:Traffic. If any of you have any requests with regards to weather and/or traffic, I'm sure I'll be able to work it into my mods.

Alex

PS Ben, I found that the sun glare on vehicles issue practically resolves itself if you use the GTA3 weather table - it doesn't have an extra sunny weather state.

[Ben]

From reading your post in the direct3d topic, that was the impression I got. I'm not sure I could've been more wrong .

Anyways, not to worry. At least now I understand a lot more about the VC-weather functions . I might hassle you for some more in-depth info at a later stage (for my guide), but for now, that will suffice .

Regarding the issue of traffic - my only requests are to deal with the traffic problems we have in LC (as long as they correspond with your mod) please. I think they're all in the checklist - off the top of my head, there's issues with the traffic at the SSV lift bridge (AFAIK, the traffic behaviour for that is coded into the SCM - the cars inside a cube near the lifting part of the bridge just disappear when the bridge starts to rise - perhaps you can make them just stop instead of disappearing entirely (as per GTA3)?); and also with the driver behaviour - not all drivers go crazy when their vehicle gets shot or hit (with a weapon).

And one other question - do you have any plans to do any other VC-*** modules? Something with the PEDs/animations would be really good (MM was starting to look into it before he got snowed under with uni work I think). Even if you didn't, any research into the differences in the engines (I'm talking specific technicalities here, not just basics) of GTA3 and VC would be invaluable for my guide. Let me know what you're plans are and I'll see what I want then .

Cheers .

EDIT - Not sure what will happen, but it'd be nice if you could take a look into the way the wanted level system is conducted through the EXE (or just in general). There's a pretty major difference between LC and GTA3 - the VC engine spawns WAY more cops, and for different things when compared to III.

Might be worth a look if you're interested .

This post has been edited by Ben on Wednesday, Jan 3 2007, 04:13