[Ben]

@Alex (AK-73, not Y_Less !) - sorry, I haven't really had a good chance to look at the animations and give it a good workout as of yet. I'm hoping to get some time this weekend, but I'll have to see.

To expand on the f*cku animation - I noticed that it works in a similar way between GTA3 and VC. Whereas Claude in GTA3 gave people the finger, Tommy in VC raises his arm, sorta half bent, like he wants to fight them. But Alex said that the VC model doesn't have fingers (I think ), so I'm not sure if it can be done. I'm guessing that with a slight model fix to counter this, Alex should be able to alter the animation to get it looking pretty close to being right.

@Kon - the terribleness might just be the GTA3ness, which I'm pretty sure you said you haven't played? When I tested it (just to see if it worked), I didn't see anything wrong .

[AK-73]

QUOTE (benisablink182fan @ Mar 14 2006, 06:57)

@Alex (AK-73, not Y_Less !) - sorry, I haven't really had a good chance to look at the animations and give it a good workout as of yet. I'm hoping to get some time this weekend, but I'll have to see. To expand on the f*cku animation - I noticed that it works in a similar way between GTA3 and VC. Whereas Claude in GTA3 gave people the finger, Tommy in VC raises his arm, sorta half bent, like he wants to fight them. But Alex said that the VC model doesn't have fingers (I think ), so I'm not sure if it can be done. I'm guessing that with a slight model fix to counter this, Alex should be able to alter the animation to get it looking pretty close to being right. @Kon - the terribleness might just be the GTA3ness, which I'm pretty sure you said you haven't played? When I tested it (just to see if it worked), I didn't see anything wrong .

Ben, I have a new version with the baseball bat fixed. Just rotated the Right Hand bone correctly. I didn't think of hand-held items back then, so I didn't pay too much attention to hands. If you want me to, I'll send you the latest version.

About the f*cku animation: if the problem is getting the finger onto it, I think there might me a kludgy solution to it. In order to make the middle finger appear, you need a bone to which no vertices are already attached, right? The idea I have in mind is to attach a scaled down version of the finger to one of the toe bones and hide it in Claude's chest. If I remember it correctly, none of Claude's vertices are attached to that bone. Then on the first frame of f*cku, you scale up the bone so that the geometry gets back to 100% size and place the middle finger at the right position, frame by frame.

Don't know if that would work but it's an idea. Any thoughts about it? Anyone?

Alex

[Konstantinos]

QUOTE (benisablink182fan @ Mar 14 2006, 07:57)

@Kon - the terribleness might just be the GTA3ness, which I'm pretty sure you said you haven't played? When I tested it (just to see if it worked), I didn't see anything wrong .

That's probably true. The way his arms shake seemed unnatural to me, as if 200 volts were passing through his body Then again, it's probably supposed to be like this in GTA3, which I really haven't played.
Anyway, would you forward me the latest file from AK-73? You got my email.

[GTAThomas]

Ah yes, the f*cku animation. Probably my favorite thing that claude ever did in GTAIII.
@AK-73:
You have to take into consideration of who you are asking here.
I have no idea what you are talking about but I could pick some points out of it.
Basically you are saying is that you hide his finger in his chest and make it tiny, then when you start the f*cku animation you put his finger in the right place (on his hand ) and make it rise? sounds cool, although it's kind of odd knowing that claude's finger will actually be his toe, lodged into his chest, and sprouts onto his fist. yeah.

[Ben]

@Alex - Great, can you send it to me please?

@Kon - If I had the time, I'd look into making a video of Claude running in GTA3 so you could see what it looks like, but I don't. You could check out Dem's site and see if he has any videos of it.

@Alex (again) - The f*cku animation solution sounds like it might work, but I'm basing that on logic rather than my complete lack of modelling knowledge . Choofy or silver (or someone else maybe) should be able to tell you for sure .

[AK-73]

QUOTE (benisablink182fan @ Mar 16 2006, 07:47)

@Alex - Great, can you send it to me please? @Kon - If I had the time, I'd look into making a video of Claude running in GTA3 so you could see what it looks like, but I don't.  You could check out Dem's site and see if he has any videos of it. @Alex (again) - The f*cku animation solution sounds like it might work, but I'm basing that on logic rather than my complete lack of modelling knowledge .  Choofy or silver (or someone else maybe) should be able to tell you for sure .

I've been given it some thought: I guess it would be way better to attach the finger to the toe bone, move the toe bone just inside of the foot and hide the finger geometry at the exact position of the toe bone. That way it will be certain to remain inside of the foot geometry, I think. I'll try that over the weekend.

About the running animations: they're of course not perfectly done. Just well enough for my taste. If anybody wants to further refine them no problem with that. I just didn't like the VC animations on Claude. His shoulders looked like they kept twitching upwards.

Alex

PS Ben, if you want Konstantinos to check Claude's GTA3 animation why not just send him GTA3's player.dff and ped.ifp? Much better than a replay.

[Ben]

Will that even work on the VC engine?

Nevermind - I'll forward the latest animation file and the GTA3 files onto you in a sec Kon.

But I did find a pretty good video of Claude running in GTA3 on Dem's site - jumpbridge.avi (14 secs, 1.60MB). It shows him running, jumping and sprinting . It's also a nifty trick which I didn't know could be done .

That'll have to be checked in LC - perhaps it's something that will need to be fixed , but hopefully not .

Alex, when you're done with the model, would you mind sending it to me so I can hopefully have a look at it and forward it on ? Cheers.

[AK-73]

QUOTE

Will that even work on the VC engine?

I *think* it will but there's only one way to know for sure. It requires that either only the player actor uses the f*cku animation or that all other actors who use that animation have likewise no vertex bound to the same bone though.

QUOTE

Nevermind - I'll forward the latest animation file and the GTA3 files onto you in a sec Kon. But I did find a pretty good video of Claude running in GTA3 on Dem's site - jumpbridge.avi (14 secs, 1.60MB). It shows him running, jumping and sprinting icon14.gif. It's also a nifty trick which I didn't know could be done wink.gif. That'll have to be checked in LC - perhaps it's something that will need to be fixed confused.gif, but hopefully not smile.gif.

The slight wriggliness of the animations comes from the bones not being precisely enough aligned, I guess. Either aligning them more precisely or erasing some keyframes and letting gmax do the interpolation should make it more smoothly. I can live with it the way it is, I tried to do it a bit more smoothly on the f*cku animation because it's slower and so it would have become more obvious.

QUOTE

Alex, when you're done with the model, would you mind sending it to me so I can hopefully have a look at it and forward it on cool.gif? Cheers.

I've finished the animation (sans finger) for now, looks pretty okay to me, one problem has arisen though: because of the way the LC Claude model was done, if the upper body rotates (solar plexus upwards), I can't easily rotate the rest of the upper body down the hips without rotating *everything* below the solar plexus, including legs, thus I skipped on doing that. So right now it looks a bit strange because there's no movement of Claude downwards the solar plexus on this animation when in the GTA3 original animation there was no movement down the hips. To counter this I suggest that I give the spine1 bone some influence on vertices that originally belonged to the Smid part of GTA3 Claude. Which in turn will effect all the animations but I think it will make them only smoother. I guess.

Secondly, I still have no idea where GTA3 gets the finger geometry from. I wouldn't want to have to model a finger on my own, so if *anyone* knows anything about it, I'd like to know.

Alex

[GTAThomas]

It would also be nice if claude in LC fell on his face when he falls from heights, but that does not seem like a big deal. [/pointless-thought]

[Ben]

@AK-73 - Ok. The only reason I asked about it working on the VC engine was that the ped models are done differently in VC compared to GTA3. No biggie though.

One of the PED converters should be able to tweak the Claude model to those specifications and give him a finger, and then the animations can be touched up if need be - then it'll be final .

@Thomas - The problem with that is that he is less likely to recover from a massive fall, which is the reason he "died" in GTA3 when that occurred. I don't think it should be changed for LC (from what it is now), especially since we have helicopters which enable you to bail from great heights or leap off very tall buildings. But that's just my opinion.

[AK-73]

QUOTE

@AK-73 - Ok. The only reason I asked about it working on the VC engine was that the ped models are done differently in VC compared to GTA3. No biggie though.

That was no problem. The problem is that I didn't get the VC engine to execute scaling so far. So I can't shrink the finger, that's a serious problem. The animation without the finger runs just fine though.

QUOTE

One of the PED converters should be able to tweak the Claude model to those specifications and give him a finger, and then the animations can be touched up if need be - then it'll be final .

No, no problem, I had done that myself already. I had given Claude provisionally a cylinder as a finger but it didn't work as mentioned. The foot would be big enough to hold the finger but I can't know for sure if it wouldn't show up on other animations. I'llhave a look at it. If anybody knows whether VC supports scaling of bones or not, please enlighten me.

[Ben]

I was testing the latest animation update from AK-73 when I came across a biggish problem:
The prison Claude model is really buggy - it could be a result of the AK-73's new animations, although ordinary Claude is still fine. It's hard to get good screenies of the bugs, but they are easily recreated - do the following and you'll see them:
• Run backwards - his butt becomes unattached from his legs (mainly seen at his back pockets)
• Run sideways - pretty much the same
• Run forward and sideways at the same time (diagonally) - same again, both left and right
• Run backward and sideways (diagonally) - same as forwards
• Run forwards normally - both his arms come backward too far (it's as though his shoulder is where his scapula (shoulder-blade) is). Most noticeable due to the LIBERTY PENITENTIARY writing.
• Crouch - same as for running
• Use each weapon - most are fine, but there's a problem with a few (mainly the bigger, heavier weapons).

Here's a pic of him using the THUGSTOOLS shotgun - note the see-through bit under his right arm:


The weapons that cause problems (similar to the see-through bug described above) are:
• THUGSTOOLS shotgun - major
• Kruger (THUGSTOOLS) - major
• Katana (PROFESSIONALTOOLS) - minor
• Python (One-shot-kill pistol - PROFESSIONALTOOLS) - minor
• Grenades/molotovs (whilst throwing) - minor
• M16 (PROFESSIONALTOOLS) - major
• Chainsaw (NUTTERTOOLS) - minor
• Sub-machine guns (any cheat) - minor: only when you stop firing (Claude jerks forward and the top of his right arm goes see-through)
• Spaz shotgun (NUTTERTOOLS) - minor
• AK-47 (NUTTERTOOLS) - minor

I have thoroughly tested all weapons given by cheats, and these are the only ones with issues (crouch, running, stationary, jumping, look-behind view, etc. whilst firing/holding, etc.)

Note that none of these issues exist with the ordinary Claude (in his black jacket) - actually, his butt becoming attached from his legs does, but nowhere near as bad (it just looks like he has baggy pants). Although not major issues in that most people won't encounter them during game-play, it is still possible for someone to do, and therefore must be fixed.

(Late) EDIT - If one of the PED converters is having trouble recreating any of these, PM me and I'll hook you up with the latest ped.ifp animation file .

Also, I spoke to AK-73 about some of them, but he said that they are original animations which he didn't touch (things like crouching, firing a weapon, etc.)

This post has been edited by benisablink182fan on Thursday, Mar 30 2006, 20:57

[AK-73]

QUOTE

The prison Claude model is really buggy - it could be a result of the AK-73's new animations, although ordinary Claude is still fine.

I'm currently working on refining the Claude model. The current version is a bit taller than Claude, Tommy-sized I guess. I'll submit an original-sized version of Claude soon, so that everyone can test it. If there's not too many problems with the smaller size, I suggest keeping it and just replacing some animations, if necessary. Otherwise we can always return to Tommy-sized Claude. Also, 6 vertices at the back pockets of his pants hadn't been attached, I fixed that too. (Never seemed to make a difference in game anyway). All-in-all I think the model is fine but it could be further refined. :-) If anybody has any suggestions, I'm all ears.

QUOTE

Note that none of these issues exist with the ordinary Claude (in his black jacket) - actually, his butt becoming attached from his legs does, but nowhere near as bad (it just looks like he has baggy pants). Although not major issues in that most people won't encounter them during game-play, it is still possible for someone to do, and therefore must be fixed.

If you send me some pics,
there will be a fix, lol.

[Ben]

You were having troubles getting LC working right? You could try using the LC models in VC - that'd give you some insight into the problems I've described, because it's really very difficult to get good screenies of the running problems. If that works, you can try each of the running issues, and try out the weapons that are in VC with problems (that I listed) - it should work (the files are player.txd/dff and playerp.txd/dff in your LC gta3.img, I think).

The crouching problem should be fixed if you've attached those vertices - that was the only thing I could really see wrong with normal Claude. I'll send you a pic of both Claudes (prison and normal) crouching, and I'll link you to the pic I've already posted with him firing a shotgun .

Also, I can't see anything wrong with refining the Claude model, as long as it still works on bikes .

EDIT - I've just sent you a few pics .

This post has been edited by benisablink182fan on Saturday, Apr 1 2006, 00:47

[Ben]

I've been doing some testing for AK-73's refined Claude model, and it's coming along pretty good. There's a few minor issues, especially with his neck, which over-extends.

But, due to him being shorter and broader across the shoulders than the Tommy-sized Claude, he looks a bit different on bikes. Here is where you can download a short 1min vid of the new Claude riding on a PCJ (~3MB). It's encoded with DivX so you'll need it to play the avi.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with it - if anyone has any concerns with the way Claude now looks on the bike, please post here and let us know so we can refine it if necessary. I haven't tested on an Angel/Freeway, Sanchez or Faggio yet, but when AK-73 has fixed the issues I've noted for him, I can test it then (hopefully there won't be any).

Also, as you will have noticed, I've cleaned this topic up a bit - culled posts, changed title/description, etc. However, Choofy now has editing priveleges for the first post, primarily due to inactivity from --Cole-- (although I understand Choofy hasn't exactly been heaps active recently either !). The list in the first post will need updating too - I can do it, but I need to know what to change .

[AK-73]

Hi all!

Just an update: I've made a new Claude from scratch, that hasn't been scaled to
Tommy size (which of course introduces its own sets of problems) and so he looks pretty authentic. I also overworked the run_player animation and it's now as close to being pixel perfect as you can get within the boundaries of reason. Also I've done the idle_stance animation and will now turn to the f*cku animation. I think it can be done but it is a bit more complicated as it will involve disabling all right toe bone animation in all animations but f*cku. I would like to have a go ahead from the people in charge of the project before doing that. Then I would add a finger stub to the right toe bone, hide it in Claude's foot and change it's position and rotation according to the r hand bone during the f*cku animation. If anyone ever finds the real finger geometry or creates one of their own, it should not be difficult to replace the stub with the finger.

Now to the problems with my new model... first of all, the bone system of VC and the parts system of GTA3 are different. In theory the easiest solution might be to move the relevant bones so that they are at the pivot points of corresponding GTA parts and then write a script to convert GTA3 animations automatically. *However*, that, while yielding possibly the most authentic results, would effectively disable the VC feature of bones&skins, being tantamount to returning to the old body part system.
Still, it's a possibility.

So... I did try to keep Claude as close to the original as possible while remaining a realistic bones and skin system. I encountered 2 problems with that:
a) Claude's GTA3 mesh hasn't been geared towards a realistic bones&skins. I think to make Claude look more smoothly someone more skilled in modelling and vertex weighting would have to take a look at the final result I have come up with. At present I think it cannot be done by refining vertex weighting only, some additional vertices might have to be added at the right places to make the model look good.
b) Because of the difference in the pivot points of parts of GTA3 and bones of VC, there's some difficulty in bringing it all close enough together, unless one would want to remake many animations (*plenty of work*). Currently for example there's the hanging arm problem with my model on some animations. I believe it existed already to some degree on the original Claude for VC. You can see it on some animations that occur when the player character has been standing still for too long and gets bored. Or when running with flame thrower, minigun, etc.


Anyway, I still like the looks of the new Claude model... I'd like to adapt all the fighting animations also but that seems like plenty of work so I don't know about that for sure yet.

cheerio,
Alex

[Ben]

Excellent work Alex.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as there's no noticable problems with disabling the toe animation during f*cku, go for it.

Reverting back to the old body part system might be something to look into - perhaps the cutscenes might be more easily done? Just a thought - the mouths may be able to be moved.

Keep up the good work .

[AK-73]

QUOTE (benisablink182fan @ Apr 22 2006, 02:15)

Excellent work Alex. As far as I'm concerned, as long as there's no noticable problems with disabling the toe animation during f*cku, go for it.

No not during f*cku, during f*cku the r toe bone is supposed to get moved and rotated so that the middle finger appears right where it's supposed to be. If however any of the many other animations rotates the toe bone, the rotated finger might stick up out of his foot. Therefore this requires that I disable all toe bone transforms in all other animations. Subsequently, it requires that no in-game ped/actor has vertices bound to the r toe bone (and I suggest neither for the left). Heh, if everything works as I currently think it does, one could in theory even attach to the left toe bone some other geometry (some kind of small object in his jacket's pockets) for use in animations.

QUOTE

Reverting back to the old body part system might be something to look into - perhaps the cutscenes might be more easily done?  Just a thought - the mouths may be able to be moved. Keep up the good work .

If the cutscene models use completely seperate models and completely seperate animations, it's possible to use the current system for in-game models and to try and find if there's a way to use the aforementioned process for cs models. What you need is a fairly analoguous hierarchy. Since I have never dealt with cutscenes, I wouldn't know. :-)

Alex

[Ben]

Ah, ok.

By the way, your new Claude model looks really good . I've had a bit of a play around with it - there's a few very very very minor issues to tweak, but I think that apart from that it's just about perfect . I'll be sending you a full report and a video again.

As far as I'm aware, LC doesn't have dedicated CS models like VC did. It's something that I wouldn't mind looking into once the rest of the PED conversion process is done - it's a bit of tidying up issue. The only downside is that it'll increase the size of the installer. But we'll consider that later .

[Y_Less]

What is the right toe bone actually ever used for? How much of a difference would removing it make, in terms of appearence?