[Ryan_]

At the moment i know very very little about 3d modeking. I was thinking when I finish with my cols i would learn and cut them down even more. do you know how to do this charlse?

[Craig Kostelecky]

I am very happy to finally see some progress happening in this area. Big thanks to everybody involved who are making the effort needed to finally get rid of the clipping issues we've had.

There is a reason behind this post besides the praise I'm giving these people. I'd like to get another public beta package released in the near future. But before I do, I'd like to have a consensus on how we're going to handle the cols. Should they be removed from the image and defined in the gta-vc.dat file?

QUOTE (jcab42)

re: Pine Creek, you know there's...

Are you trying to imply that Ryan_ is the same gut as PineCreek Skidz? Because I do not think they are the same person (even though Skidz's name is Ryan)

[charlesbesso]

Craig the game seems to work fine with the col's defined in gta_vc.dat. I propose we do an internal beta update for the team member's so we can test this new method on the wide range of their various set-ups to make sure no new issues crop up. if there's no new issues reported then we can take that bold step and release it to public for further testing, I also proppose all the people work on .col's collaberate and get portland's col's finished so we can use it as the sandbox for this testing. sound good to you guys?

to ryan_ it's actually rather simple ok a) import the .dff for the object b) create the new item as I described over the object you've imported c) when satisfied delete the .dff's object leaving your new object d) export as x and generate a .col file. here's the part I don't know how to do, how to go into the orginal .col and replace the old object data with the new updated object data (can anyone in the forum explain in pm's or this thread or perhaps make a tutorial about how one would do this it would speed up this mod alot)

hope that answered most of your question ryan.

This post has been edited by charlesbesso on Thursday, Mar 24 2005, 11:02

[Ryan_]

LOL No, i am not Pine. That was kinda funny. i think he was just referencing my post.

Charles, I know how to do that lol, so you do not know how to 3d model?


This post has been edited by Ryan_ on Friday, Mar 25 2005, 01:24

[charlesbesso]

uh no I can't model I've been trying for the past five hours and 3d studio max is just crap, it'd be easy to forge a shape in it if when you picked a vertice with select it didn't DO EVERY DAMN VERTICE IN THE ENTIRE MODEL ON IN THE SELECTION BOX.... this is crap, does anyone know a 3d editing package that doesn't do that?

edit - it took alot of time but I got around that annoying issue, got block_maindrag down to about 877 faces so far with full detail, Vizup says it can bump it down to around 450, I'll be adding the backs of the buildings and the ground in the center which will be another 26 faces and I'll have completed my first complex modeling edit ever. whoo... I'm going do some simple ones after this.

and no ryan I was replying to your question in the previous post and I ment MANUALLY editing COL files

Death Squad working within Zmodeler is even worse since you can't even view the imported files vertices.... oh well maybe in Z2

This post has been edited by charlesbesso on Friday, Mar 25 2005, 04:59

[DeathSquad]

3d Studio Max is the better of the programs, but I will say its a semi-harder program to learn. Look up Zmodeler, that seems to be the popular one under 3d Max.

[Ryan_]

For me VIZup says the best it can do with block_maindrag is 1080, and it has holes all over the place.
Polygon Cruncher got me to 1000 with a perfect model.
But, I have been thinking about the whole col/poly thing. I took a good look at the models and came to the comclusion that I can get very high detail colfiles with very low polycount if I just learn to make the mesh myself.
So.....
I'll be back when I have an update.

ps. does anyone know if the 3ds max 7 col I/O script works well? I really like the Dff I/O script so I hope its good.

[charlesbesso]

I came to that same conclusion ryan but with 3ds max and the bug I was talking about it makes it an insanely over detailed task, otherwise I would have just deleted all the vertices cept the top of the roof's and then rebuild it the problem with that was I wanted to keep those little steps you can actually stand on infront of the store fronts and also ideally I'd like to be able to stand on the various overhangs, if only there was a face to redefine the faces of the polygon's with a line tool, ryan I can send you my block_maindrag so you can see how I went about reducing the polygon count (one thing I did was use photoshops optimize then exported and let Vizup take a crack at it and it reduced it 50%) I also used the view to go inside the model and manually delete alot of faces that you can't see and would never run into unless you were in blue hell.

if you ever figure out how to edit the meshes manually please tell me as I could have reduced it alot more if I could have simply built a flat plane on the store fronts instead of having all the detail of the frames of the doors + windows

or if there was a way to delete all the vertices except the border's and have some software intelligently fill the faces with the left over vertices

[Ryan_]

Well, It has been said enought times and I'm sorry it took me so long to attempt it but, I was thinking it would be better if we just edit the original col files. Basically all we need is the original cols with proper roofs and some backings to some buildings. There are also parts of the ground that need colfiles (in the middle of a model where you could not get in gta3.

I think I was misleading with my thoughts on high detail col files, when i speak fo detail, I mean about the roof/balconies/overhangs ect, which when I learn, will be a very easy thing to do. When we decimate the dff models, the decimation software is trying to keep a good appearance of the model to the game world, but that is not what we need. No matter what decimation software we use, the polycount of the colfile is too high.
Some of gta3's colfiles have 0 faces. How was that done? I think I really need to get a good understanding of the faces/polys/triangles/vert's ect.
Anyways, that is where I'm at.
Any advice or helpful info?
Thanks

[jcab42]

Did you guys try my suggestion? If so then where did you run into trouble?

re: "Zmodeler is even worse since you can't even view the imported files vertices"
I have no idea what you're talking about. You can't see vertices?

And no, Craig, I wasn't saying that they are the same person.

[charlesbesso]

Jcab vertices are the dots that make a polygon a polygon, z mod cannot show you these points, whereas 3d studio max can. however I am wrong about doing it like that much like Ryan I believe the only way to do this properly is to create new models. it's not that your concept wasn't sound J it's just we don't know how to model it at this point

Ryan yeah I noticed the zero face col's the orginal block_maindrag is a zero face file (at least the main part) here comes the problem loading it in colleditor shows me the size of the plane but neigher z mod nor 3ds max has any indication of measurment to scale a plane for use as the buttom for it.

at this point I'm just going to try modeling it with as litte features as possible, but that means losing details from the orgainal file , now all I need is some graph paper to visualize it.

[Ryan_]

I am just ahead of you Charles, I think I found a great solution. It involves us editing the original dff. I can't believe I didn't think of this before!
First you import the dff into 3DS Max, then you export as 3ds. Next you boot up (And here's the kicker) Sketchup!. That's right, I said Sketchup! It is sooooo easy to edit the 3ds file in Sketchup to contain the least amount of polys with near perfect model structure, then export as 3ds.
Next you boot back up 3DS Max, load your tricked out 3ds file, decimate what you can, and export that baby as col.
For instance, after decimating the original iten_singbuild02.dff with Polycruncher I was able to get to 215 with minor missing faces. But when I decimate my edited 3ds file (which is 214 lol) from Sketchup, I can get to 117 with near perfect accuracy (edited out polys from a balcony Fido couldn't even fit in). Not to say that as I get better, that number drop even more.
Incase I didn't mention it before, I am using the PolyCruncher script for 3DS Max 6/7 for my decimation.

I was wondering, are there any models in particular that are in need of a col update ASAP? I mean, are there any that the team needs or would like first?

There are some buildings already in LC that don't even need a col fix, I was hoping everyone could pitch in and mention the ones they feel DO need a col fix. That way we will be able to get the more noticable cols fixed first instead of inevitably(sp) spending time with less necessary models while doing them in alphabetical order per colfile (Archive).

[charlesbesso]

ok well I'm going to try in sketchup because max is driving me insane and over complicating something that should be simple, (block maindrag is way to complex to even edit for a scale referrance) what setting in poly cruncher are you using I mean percentage?

update, I got sketchup omg this sh*t's so straight foward and better for doing this I don't see where I can import a file though but from what I've seen this is definitely the tool for simplifying this process

This post has been edited by charlesbesso on Saturday, Mar 26 2005, 02:42

[Ryan_]

good to hear. right now im testing for iten_singbuild02/iten_hoteltop and Iten_block01.
My girlfriend has msn messenger on my pc, do you have that charles?
pm me info if u do and ill set up myself with an account

This post has been edited by Ryan_ on Saturday, Mar 26 2005, 04:40

[charlesbesso]

yeah I think I have a .net passport if I can remember the password, but I'm drinkin beers and watching tv right now.

I have to make a post so I'll get at you later.



- update

I think we have a serious problem here.
ok there may be models with varies roof heights in the number of hundreds using LOD modules with zero faces and zero vertices, they're perfect for square or rectanguler builds but when the roof is supposed to have varies heights it has one plane of height. I don't think the engine can handle that many non LODS intheir place with full detail, unless we can find a very skilled model that can very very low poly models by their pure skill it'll make the game crash. the only other thing that could be done about this is getting a polygon decimator, but they're professioanl software and cost professional level prices $5 in this instance, my hope is some where out there is an open source or bsd style license for a program like that. sp anyone that might know where we can find that post here on the forum.

This post has been edited by charlesbesso on Saturday, Mar 26 2005, 07:19

[jcab42]

To see the vertices in zmod you simply select the model and the click the vertices buttom. But if you guys would rather import and export using three different porgrams, whatever, see if I try to help you again.

[Ryan_]

"But if you guys would rather import and export using three different porgrams, whatever, see if I try to help you again."

Whoa man, don't you think that's a little bit harsh? All we are trying to do is help out a little. I think it is rather obvious that neither of us has any prior skill in 3d modeling, and personally, whenever I start up ZModeler I get an instant headache. I can't work with it at all.
And I am only using 2 programs to complete the process, 3DS Max 7 and Sketchup. So it's not so bad of an issue. And all I really use Max for is to import/export.
Don't think in any way that I was ignoring you or your input, It's just ZMod is an eyestrain for me. Trust me, your input is very much appreciated.
Sorry for any misunderstanding on the issue.

On another note, I have perfected my method of creating low poly colfiles. All tests have been great success's and I am currently doing random buildings until requests start to pop up, so......

[jcab42]

Ok, so now we're getting somewhere. If zmod is giving you eye strain, could it be that there something wrong with your display settings? For instance, there's a fog setting you can turn off. Zmod is a good program, especially for something like this. I don't know how else you can so easily import a col and dff and compare them to each other and edit the col... if you spend any more time on it than that or if you end up with a higher face count than the original then seems like a waste to me.

Sorry, it's frustrating when you tell people the best way to do something and the only reaction you get is "zmod won't show you vertices".

[Ryan_]

well, i think, if i have to add 25 faces to a colfile in order to be able to access its roof then so be it. Why dont you go drive around the airport, i think there are more original polys in that area then anywhaer else (there are models with over 1000 polys.

Sorry again, ZMod doesnt actually hurt my eyes, it was an expression, i meant i just cant figure it out.
All I have to do is import the dff and col into max, export both as dxf, then i import both to sketchup and edit. now how difficult is that? Did I meation that I did take the advice of editing the original col file? Im sorry if I had not, it really does make the difference. LOL, right now, I can actually reduce the number of original faces on the col and very much increase the accuracy of the file as well. example: iten_block01(original faces 127)(now 63). Thats pretty good don't you think?

[charlesbesso]

Jcab no. I just im ported a dff and clicked the vertices button there are NO POINTS DISPLAYED. got it? it simply doesn't show the vertices period and if you can show me a screenshot of it otherwise then fine, I'm telling you it doesn't show them don't contradict me like I'm some moronic kid that couldn't see a button clearly labeled "Vertices", no offense I know you mean well.

ok and ryan if you import both won't they over lap so you wouldn't know which model you're adding to?