[TheShogunOfHarlem]

I know that my title is incendiary but please read my OP in full before you post any response. This post is more of a discussion on what Fascism is and how it functioned in the past (present) and how it is often an attack that the Left uses to criticize the Right. On the flip-side, the Right has often referred to people on the Left as Socialists/Communists/etc. (But I digress, that is for another thread discussion) For this specific thread I want to discuss the belief of some on the Left believe (in my case in the USA) that the Right are Fascists or favor Fascism in some new form. In this case I will refer to it as Neo-Fascism.

Historically speaking, the Left has used the "Business Plot" conspiracy (of the 1930's) as an example of the Right (in this case Big Business) trying to mount a Coup against FDR and to install a Fascist regime in its place. Perhaps this is the origin of that allegation. I'll get to the Business Plot later.

Some contemporary commentators have outright accused the Right of either supporting Fascist governments or of being/supporting policies that could be considered Fascist. The most prominent that I can think of would be Michael Parenti:

In this lecture he makes his case:




Let the discussion begin...

[Jeeebuuus]

I am inclined to think that their are fascist elements in American politics. I used to read up on subjects like this but it has been a few years so I'm rusty with my knowledge. We may refer to it today as "Corporatism" or the like but big corporations and the government are indeed intertwined along with other entities. Nothing is simple about these relationships.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

True. What's Funny about Corporatism is that there is a quote or saying that is often attributed to Benito Mussolini that: Fascism should be called Corporatism.

[HydraulicWaRiOr]

True socialism lies at the heart of society, the many. True capitalism lies at the heart of the capital, the few. Society needs to focus on what is important; the whole. If people don't look after the whole, the individual will fail, along with the rest of the world. We believe that individualism advocates failiure, racism and discrimination, along with economical problems especially since capitalism has a system of classes, so we support Communism.

[OBEY]

[Chunkyman]

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 23:38)

True socialism lies at the heart of society, the many. True capitalism lies at the heart of the capital, the few. Society needs to focus on what is important; the whole. If people don't look after the whole, the individual will fail, along with the rest of the world. We believe that individualism advocates failiure, racism and discrimination, along with economical problems especially since capitalism has a system of classes, so we support Communism. [INeedAttention]

Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right?

On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist.

Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.

[lil weasel]

I (and many others) used to wonder how the German Peoples would get involved in that nasty business of the thirties and forties. Then our glourious leader Bush showed us how with his WMD fiasco. I also seem to remember that a Roman republic elected a Dictator (J. Caesar).
When the people get tired of running their own lives they will easily hire somebody to do it for them.
People in Government like power and will do whatever they can to 'boil the frog'.

[Iminicus]

The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

[Jeeebuuus]

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)

The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

[Iminicus]

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:25)

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22) The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism. Could you please explain that a little further?

Marxism, Communism and Fascism are ideologies of the left sphere on the political spectrum. Which is opposite to the Right Wing, therefore, this topic is completely wrong. The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Look, here is a list of people that were fascist, marxist or communist. None of who were Right Wing, ie conservative.

Adolf Hitler
Stalin
Lenin
Chairman Mao
Che Guevara
Kim Il Jong
Fidel Castro

If those people were right wing, do you think Sean Penn would like them? No, because he is a liberal and on the left wing. Which is where they all sit.

[Jeeebuuus]

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45)

The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

[Iminicus]

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49)

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45) The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx. Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum.

Marxism

One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best.

Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals.

[Jeeebuuus]

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57)

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45) The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx. Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum? Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum. Marxism One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best. Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals.

So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum?

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:25)

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22) The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism. Could you please explain that a little further?

I was going to say the same thing. I like how so many people on the right like to put emphasis on the "Socialist" aspect of the Nazi party's name without trying to understand how it worked in Germany at the time or how it continues to work.

QUOTE

Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right? On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist.  Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.

The Left in the strictest sense is as far from fascist as you can get. If you are referring to American Democrats then you can make that argument since in many ways the Democratic party isn't very progressive to begin with. If anything they are in favor of the same corporations that Republicans are in favor of: Namely Big Banks, Oil Companies, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. The notion that the Democratic Party is representative of all things Progressive is laughable. The Political climate in the US is typically center/right regardless of which party controls The White House/Congress.

[Iminicus]

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:03)

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57) QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45) The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx. Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum? Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum. Marxism One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best. Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals. So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum?

If you are baiting me into saying George Bush Jr, I have news for you. I won't. Compared to other leaders in the 20th Century, George Bush wasn't half as bad as Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler or even more contemporary people like President Carter.

Have there been terrible right wing presidents? Yes, Nixon would be one. As he abused his presidential powers and spied on the Democrats. Was Bush a terrible leader? Depends on what.

He was right to go into Afghanistan and even Iraq, which had unanimous support from both sides of the aisle in Congress. Did he have bad policies? Yes, because he tried to be something to everyone and ignored his core base. However, he isn't comparable to Hitler, Lenin or Stalin. Which is the point of this topic.

[Iminicus]

QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:10)

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:25) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22) The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism. Could you please explain that a little further? I was going to say the same thing. I like how so many people on the right like to put emphasis on the "Socialist" aspect of the Nazi party's name without trying to understand how it worked in Germany at the time or how it continues to work. QUOTE Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right? On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist.   Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry. The Left in the strictest sense is as far from fascist as you can get. If you are referring to American Democrats then you can make that argument since in many ways the Democratic party isn't very progressive to begin with. If anything they are in favor of the same corporations that Republicans are in favor of: Namely Big Banks, Oil Companies, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. The notion that the Democratic Party is representative of all things Progressive is laughable. The Political climate in the US is typically center/right regardless of which party controls The White House/Congress.

Umm, the Socialist part of the National Socialist Party is like the main thing about them. It is what they stood for. How can you not focus on it? It would be like ignoring the whole Space in National Aeronautical and Space Association aka NASA.

And what Hitler did in Germany? Well, he took away the means of private industry from private people and handed it over to the people. In doing this, he had them sign a social contract putting him in complete control of Germany. From its means of production to every social aspect. He was given unlimited power by the people because they wanted that. He then abused that power and lead them into a war. A war which still isn't comparable to what George Bush did.

[Jeeebuuus]

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:11)

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:03) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57) QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45) The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx. Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum? Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum. Marxism One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best. Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals. So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum? If you are baiting me into saying George Bush Jr, I have news for you. I won't. Compared to other leaders in the 20th Century, George Bush wasn't half as bad as Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler or even more contemporary people like President Carter. Have there been terrible right wing presidents? Yes, Nixon would be one. As he abused his presidential powers and spied on the Democrats. Was Bush a terrible leader? Depends on what. He was right to go into Afghanistan and even Iraq, which had unanimous support from both sides of the aisle in Congress. Did he have bad policies? Yes, because he tried to be something to everyone and ignored his core base. However, he isn't comparable to Hitler, Lenin or Stalin. Which is the point of this topic.

You for some reason reduced my question to American presidents. Rethink my question but this time imagine I'm asking about all countries. All leaders.

[Iminicus]

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:23)

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:11) QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:03) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57) QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45) The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx. Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum? Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum. Marxism One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best. Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals. So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum? If you are baiting me into saying George Bush Jr, I have news for you. I won't. Compared to other leaders in the 20th Century, George Bush wasn't half as bad as Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler or even more contemporary people like President Carter. Have there been terrible right wing presidents? Yes, Nixon would be one. As he abused his presidential powers and spied on the Democrats. Was Bush a terrible leader? Depends on what. He was right to go into Afghanistan and even Iraq, which had unanimous support from both sides of the aisle in Congress. Did he have bad policies? Yes, because he tried to be something to everyone and ignored his core base. However, he isn't comparable to Hitler, Lenin or Stalin. Which is the point of this topic. You for some reason reduced my question to American presidents. Rethink my question but this time imagine I'm asking about all countries. All leaders.

Besides Margaret Thatcher, most countries elect people on the left of the political spectrum. There aren't really any countries in the last 100 years, besides America that elects right wing politicians. Even those that appear right wing in other countries are more likely left wing. IE, the Prime Minister of New Zealand or Australia or Canada. They are more left wing than right wing. The same with the leaders of Germany, France, England, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Russia, etc.

Therefore, the only place to go is American presidents.

[Jeeebuuus]

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:27)

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:23) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:11) QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:03) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57) QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49) QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45) The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx. Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum? Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum. Marxism One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best. Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals. So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum? If you are baiting me into saying George Bush Jr, I have news for you. I won't. Compared to other leaders in the 20th Century, George Bush wasn't half as bad as Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler or even more contemporary people like President Carter. Have there been terrible right wing presidents? Yes, Nixon would be one. As he abused his presidential powers and spied on the Democrats. Was Bush a terrible leader? Depends on what. He was right to go into Afghanistan and even Iraq, which had unanimous support from both sides of the aisle in Congress. Did he have bad policies? Yes, because he tried to be something to everyone and ignored his core base. However, he isn't comparable to Hitler, Lenin or Stalin. Which is the point of this topic. You for some reason reduced my question to American presidents. Rethink my question but this time imagine I'm asking about all countries. All leaders. Besides Margaret Thatcher, most countries elect people on the left of the political spectrum. There aren't really any countries in the last 100 years, besides America that elects right wing politicians. Even those that appear right wing in other countries are more likely left wing. IE, the Prime Minister of New Zealand or Australia or Canada. They are more left wing than right wing. The same with the leaders of Germany, France, England, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Russia, etc. Therefore, the only place to go is American presidents.

Wow. The whole world is against you huh?

[Iminicus]

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:31)

snip

No, I am simply saying that in today's political climate people are gravitating towards politicians who will take care of their problems. They no longer want personal responsibility. And which is why so many countries are in debt over Welfare programs.

[Rown]

I will take this opportunity to gripe about bank centered finance seeing as I haven't done it an undetermined amount of time.

Why must banks have a monopoly on the production of money thus insuring debt a prominent place in society? Could we not have a marketplace of currencies all vying for my usage? But no I'm stuck in a financial system where banks getting scared brings the whole damned economy to its knees. Rada rada.


Immy, while Right Wingers don't espouse 'social' supremacy, they do support 'moral' supremacy arguments quite a bit. How does that play, if at all?

Rown