[Typhus]

QUOTE (gta player13 @ Thursday, Nov 8 2012, 18:51)

The way you put it,yes it should be better for him to die.But unfortunately,no one can make killing for any reason legal.

But it's not killing, it's the decision of one person to end their own life. Or, as I believe, the decision of the many to end human life once it serves no further value to society.
It's not killing, it would be done either with the express permission of the victim or at the behest of the general public. "Killing" implies something sordid and immoral and the legalisation of euthanasia would make everything perfectly legal and above-board.

[goin-god]

QUOTE (gta player13 @ Thursday, Nov 8 2012, 15:51)

o one can make killing for any reason legal.

Why not? Death Penalty is basically killing legally.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (gta player13 @ Thursday, Nov 8 2012, 14:51)

The way you put it,yes it should be better for him to die.But unfortunately,no one can make killing for any reason legal.

Then as long as you are against the death penalty, I won't argue with you.

[gta player13]

QUOTE (Typhus @ Thursday, Nov 8 2012, 18:58)

QUOTE (gta player13 @ Thursday, Nov 8 2012, 18:51) The way you put it,yes it should be better for him to die.But unfortunately,no one can make killing for any reason legal. But it's not killing, it's the decision of one person to end their own life. Or, as I believe, the decision of the many to end human life once it serves no further value to society. It's not killing, it would be done either with the express permission of the victim or at the behest of the general public. "Killing" implies something sordid and immoral and the legalisation of euthanasia would make everything perfectly legal and above-board.

Sure,that's what I said actually
If that person kills himself,then alright.But,isn't it illegal if WE kill him even if it was
his own decision?

[TenEightyOne]

I should have the right to take my own life and, if I can be proved to be mentally competent to take the decision, I should be able to enlist the help of specialist professionals.

The natural concern is for Sylvia, 82, she's very wealthy as her deceased husband carefully put money away over the years. Her house is worth a lot of money and she remains fiercely independent. Her mental health is, however, deteriorating.

Her son's basically a scumbag and would happily see the old cow dead and himself inheriting a lot of money and a large property.

How do we succesfully legislate to protect her from spurious DNR claims or being talked into something dreadful? I don't know the answer and I suspect that our legislature don't either.

[Morpheus72]

Completely agree with Typhus. I despise the pathetic clinging to life, even when life is no longer worth living, that seems to be so deeply ingrained into the western character.

I've got no sympathy for people who lack a zest for life, who waste it on alcohol and drugs, and then expect sympathy from people who actually have a reason to be alive. If your life is no longer worth living, just die. The world will probably be better off without you.

The reason I carry on with this charade is that so many things interest me that to die right now would be a waste, but maybe I won't have such a passion for learning in 10, 20 or 30 years time (if I'm still alive then). If I ever get bored of music, boxing, history and geography, then I'd be happy to terminate my existence in the least painful way possible.

This post has been edited by Morpheus72 on Monday, Nov 12 2012, 16:43

[feliciano2040]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it before, but this should deffinitely be allowed for people who have also been diagnosed with dementia or alzheimer, if you really don't want to live the consequences of such horrible diseases, then by all means, you should be allowed to die.

Also Typhus, what the hell bro ? You're going to get old one day as well, that doesn't mean you're going to be a useless f*ck.

[Cyper]

When I was working with a project about euthanasia in school (philosophy) I found this interesting documentary that more or less put you in the shoes of someone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTjnwW4vXs

-Please ensure you keep posts within subforum rules- that means, don't post a YouTube article without a decent description of what it shows.-

This post has been edited by sivispacem on Thursday, Nov 22 2012, 18:03

[docrikowski]

QUOTE (Typhus @ Thursday, Apr 26 2012, 20:09)

I believe euthanasia is a very useful tool for ensuring the progression of society. Have you ever considered how miserable old people are? They're unable to acknowledge anything positive about the world they live in, they're luddites who seem to despise technology and, above all, they are a ticking time bomb of horrible diseases. The honest truth is that I don't see any benefit in their existence. Now, I'm obviously not advocating a campaign of boundless slaughter against our aged population. But they're dead weight, as are certain disabled people. And apart from trite arguments based on compassion and emotion, I honestly can't see a purpose for them. So if they want to die, we should actively encourage them to end their life in a dignified, clean manner. No one in society should be reduced to hanging themselves or cutting open their wrists. It should be a clean transition, as swift and painless as possible. But make it available to everyone, not just the old and crippled. It could be a real leap forward for our society.

I'm sorry but I think this whole post is pure nonsense if not clearly delusional.
I'm in favor of Euthanasia but saying that old people are dead weight is pure ignorance.
I won't list here the great men of the past (and present) that did great things for mankind even at a very old age cause they are quite known to any civilized and informed person.
You see no benefit in the existence of old people and to be honest I don't see any benefit in the existence of so many young people, especially when they have such twisted ideas on life.
Cause you know, one day you'll be old too and I'd love to read your opinion on this the very same day you realize you are old.
On a personal level I'll just add that I learned many things from old and wise people. I'm glad I can interact with them.
(Thankfully) many societies still have huge respect for age (see China).
Maybe you only met old assholes and that's where your weird ideas come from.
Anyway just remember that already when you will hit your 30s all kids will see you as an old man (I can guarantee you that!), so who decides who's old and at what age?

[Cyper]

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 17:27)

QUOTE (GTA_stu @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 03:16) Now you just sound incredibly radical and slightly crazy. Progress how? How the hell would treating older people as 2nd class citizens who are detested and loathed be a good thing? Good question, allow me to explain. Our old people have, through their long lives, been allowed to wallow in ignorance and piggish obstinance. They hate most modern things, they take a dim view on the young, they are suspicious and, above all else, have an undeserved sense of entitlement. They honestly believe that their age should afford them respect. Not their merits, not their achievements, just their age. Now, let's say that it became commonplace to kill yourself. If, instead of needlessly succumbing to the slow decline of age, you could end your life with dignity, at a point in which your mind and body were still yours to command. Think about all the worry and bitterness that would disappear. Old people act so horribly because they are degenerating and living in a world they no longer understand. But the ready presence of death would alleviate that, surely? They would finally understand that futility of being bitter at the norms and values of the modern world, they would finally stop pining for the 'good old days', they would grasp the importance of enjoying what time you had. Funnily enough, I feel that pressuring the elderly into killing themselves would allow them more freedom and happiness than they've ever experienced before. Do you see my logic?

Not sure if you're trolling or not.

This is indeed a very cold, cynic view.

You make many lose claims that is not true because they cannot be verified emperically or rationally. These claims seems to be based on personal experience. That does not however means that they are true.

Even if these claims were true, which they are to some extent (there is for sure at least one person who is like this) it does not mean that they [elders] become less worth than any other human being.

The claim that elders would enjoy more freedom and happiness dead is not true for elders nor someone else: you do not experience neither freedom or happiness when you're dead.

Pressuing elders to kill themself is a disgusting view on human life. Elders are not less worth than anyone else. You do not have any moral right to decide whenever someone is happier dead than alive. Society has to moral right to pressure elders to kill themself nor anyone else. It is totally up to the invidual.

Precise, if what feel feel like a week, you will be old yourself. Eventually you will be dead and burried in the ground. Fortunately no one should have the right to decide when and where.

[Typhus]

QUOTE (Cyper @ Sunday, Nov 25 2012, 21:34)

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 17:27) QUOTE (GTA_stu @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 03:16) Now you just sound incredibly radical and slightly crazy. Progress how? How the hell would treating older people as 2nd class citizens who are detested and loathed be a good thing? Good question, allow me to explain. Our old people have, through their long lives, been allowed to wallow in ignorance and piggish obstinance. They hate most modern things, they take a dim view on the young, they are suspicious and, above all else, have an undeserved sense of entitlement. They honestly believe that their age should afford them respect. Not their merits, not their achievements, just their age. Now, let's say that it became commonplace to kill yourself. If, instead of needlessly succumbing to the slow decline of age, you could end your life with dignity, at a point in which your mind and body were still yours to command. Think about all the worry and bitterness that would disappear. Old people act so horribly because they are degenerating and living in a world they no longer understand. But the ready presence of death would alleviate that, surely? They would finally understand that futility of being bitter at the norms and values of the modern world, they would finally stop pining for the 'good old days', they would grasp the importance of enjoying what time you had. Funnily enough, I feel that pressuring the elderly into killing themselves would allow them more freedom and happiness than they've ever experienced before. Do you see my logic? Not sure if you're trolling or not. This is indeed a very cold, cynic view. You make many lose claims that is not true because they cannot be verified emperically or rationally. These claims seems to be based on personal experience. That does not however means that they are true. Even if these claims were true, which they are to some extent (there is for sure at least one person who is like this) it does not mean that they [elders] become less worth than any other human being. The claim that elders would enjoy more freedom and happiness dead is not true for elders nor someone else: you do not experience neither freedom or happiness when you're dead. Pressuing elders to kill themself is a disgusting view on human life. Elders are not less worth than anyone else. You do not have any moral right to decide whenever someone is happier dead than alive. Society has to moral right to pressure elders to kill themself nor anyone else. It is totally up to the invidual. Precise, if what feel feel like a week, you will be old yourself. Eventually you will be dead and burried in the ground. Fortunately no one should have the right to decide when and where.

1. Don't even bring up the 'trolling' label. It's beneath us all. There are different opinions to your own, and they aren't all voiced out of an infantile desire to piss you off.

2. I am not saying that they will be happier once they are dead. I am instead claiming that the knowledge that they can simply end their life in a humane, painless way will be a liberating experience and free the elderly from the loneliness, isolation and fear that seem to dominate their lives. By removing suicide as a social taboo we can safeguard the dignity of human life. You may think me cruel, but rest assured that I hold these views because I feel that death is preferable to a life spent slowly growing weaker and more unhappy. I feel I am being kind, not evil.

3. You claim I have no 'moral right' to decide the worth of another life. You forget something important, there is no such thing as morality. It doesn't exist. Morality is a concept used to hold together society, ultimately it is a fluid concept that can change to suit the needs of the many.
And the needs of society as a whole dictate that our resources not be wasted. Can you tell me why a doomed life should be prolonged? Can you give me any reasons for that not based on emotive notions of 'right and wrong'?
My idea stems from two basic truths.
The first is that human life should not continue once it has ceased to be beneficial to the human and the second is that society must ruthlessly cut away at the dead flesh that threatens to corrupt the entire body.
You see? I say these things because I am kind, because I am benevolent, because I value the concept of society and don't want either space or other resources wasted on those who serve no further purpose.


But, docrikowski made a good point. Our aged population are useful in passing down knowledge. But isn't allowing them the choice to die a greater incentive for them to pass on that knowledge? The end of life should not be spent in a retirement home, it should not be spent huddling in the cold and fearing for the world. If the elderly have lessons to teach us, we should encourage them to do so. And we do this by aggressively combating their technophobia and nostalgia.
How can a man try to be of use to the world if his mind still pines for days long passed by? We must encourage them to live among us, to reap the benefits of our society, to use the various means of communication now available to pass on their memories and lessons.
Yes, it would be foolish to discount all the knowledge they could bestow on us. But it is equally foolish of them to wallow in the past and denigrate all we have done.

[docrikowski]

Typhus, you seem to know only one type of elder: lonely, fearful, isolated, confined in a retirement home, technophobic, bitter and nostalgic.

Well, I know many who are not like that.
Just to make an example that is close to myself, my old man, who's 78, is not alone, lives with his wife in their house, is always cheerful and usually the life of any party (dancing and making jokes for hours in a row), has a PC and uses it to skype with me and the rest of the family, is more concerned about the future of his sons and nephews that about his past or his present.
If one day he'll be alone (or my mother), he won't be confined in a retirement home and he will live with me cause he has a family that cares about him.

So, even though the kind of elder you describe does exist, your generalization just makes your idea pointless cause it's based on a distorted view of reality.
The whole "life spent slowly growing weaker and more unhappy" that you mention in your post is a completely subjective view of elders.
Once again, it might be true for some elders (who were usually unhappy and bitter even when they were young imo) but it certainly doesn't apply to the whole elder population of the planet and it definitely doesn't apply in a lot of cultures that have a different attitude towards old people and old age.

As for resources being wasted, well, they are already wasted at all ages. Who decides who wastes them more?
All our lives are doomed cause we are all going to die, so even a 5y old is doomed.
What purpose does a 5y old serve?
Shouldn't we end his/her life too and save a lot of space and resources?

I'm in favor of euthanasia for a number of different reasons and cause in certain cases it should be the right of a person to end his/her life, but this right has nothing to do with your distorted view of elder people and aging.

Seriously, you are stuck on a very subjective view of elders and this obstructed view is obstructing also your capacity to reason.

[GTA_stu]

I feel like this discussion is growing away from euthanasia and moving towards Typhus' bizarre take on old people, with whom he seems to for whatever reason hold a prejudiced grudge against.

Now some of your points I can agree with Typhus, but with certain other points I just don't quite understand how you arrive at the position you've decided to take. Namely your view that all old people are the same extreme caricature, and are miserable, bitter, resentful and hate everything about the world they live in. You do seem to have changed your position of a few months back of advocating some sort of Logan's run style ageism policy, to merely having old people viewed as 2nd class citizens and emotionally blackmailing them into committing suicide, to now just giving them a gentle reminder that they're useless and should "get with the programme".

Personally I think euthanasia should be legal but only in exceptional cases where it can be proven that the person is suffering constant physical pain, and will be for the rest of their lives, or if they are paralysed or have a severely debilitating condition which seriously affects their quality of life. Even then it should be an extensive process which requires a period of time for the decision to be made, so it can't be done on a whim or in a certain period where the person is feeling down. And age should not come into it, whatsoever.

Life is a precious thing, and we should preserve it as much as we can. If somebody wants to die then we shouldn't simply allow them to kill themselves just because "it's their body and their life". We should try to help them overcome their reasons for feeling suicidal, not just turn a blind eye and let them get on with it. Just because they are old and nearing the end of their life anyways, is not an excuse to take a different position.

[Typhus]

QUOTE (docrikowski @ Monday, Nov 26 2012, 10:38)

What purpose does a 5y old serve? Shouldn't we end his/her life too and save a lot of space and resources?

Would you honestly like me to explain to you the difference between a five year old child and a human in their eighties?
You still don't seem to understand me at all, I don't know why all you seem to think what I think is so horrible. From my perspective it is the only kind, humane thing to do. Honestly, if someone were to tell me that I had a quick, painless option to end my life whenever I felt like it, I would feel free, truly free.
Wouldn't it be nice to live in a world where people didn't hack open their wrists or die in a pool of tablets and spittle?
I'm just baffled that you all seem to think I'm the bad guy here. From my point of view allowing life to continue past its usefulness is pretty unpleasant.

[feliciano2040]

QUOTE (GTA_stu @ Monday, Nov 26 2012, 17:57)

Life is a precious thing, and we should preserve it as much as we can. If somebody wants to die then we shouldn't simply allow them to kill themselves just because "it's their body and their life". We should try to help them overcome their reasons for feeling suicidal, not just turn a blind eye and let them get on with it. Just because they are old and nearing the end of their life anyways, is not an excuse to take a different position.

I don't think anybody that supports euthanasia would suggest "turning a blind eye" to people that are feeling suicidal.

For my part, I agree that it should be necessary to determine wether the person is depressed or under any sort of emotional distress, if such is the case, then we should not allow that person to receive an assisted suicide.

However, if all options have been exhausted, and this person truly truly WANTS to die, despite not having any disabilities or debilitating conditions, then they should be allowed to do so as well, because IT IS their body and their life.

[docrikowski]

QUOTE (Typhus @ Monday, Nov 26 2012, 19:56)

QUOTE (docrikowski @ Monday, Nov 26 2012, 10:38) What purpose does a 5y old serve? Shouldn't we end his/her life too and save a lot of space and resources? Would you honestly like me to explain to you the difference between a five year old child and a human in their eighties? You still don't seem to understand me at all, I don't know why all you seem to think what I think is so horrible. From my perspective it is the only kind, humane thing to do. Honestly, if someone were to tell me that I had a quick, painless option to end my life whenever I felt like it, I would feel free, truly free. Wouldn't it be nice to live in a world where people didn't hack open their wrists or die in a pool of tablets and spittle? I'm just baffled that you all seem to think I'm the bad guy here. From my point of view allowing life to continue past its usefulness is pretty unpleasant.

There's no need to explain it. One is a potential resource (the 5y old), the other one (the 80y old) is already a resource of wisdom... or not, cause the 5y old could grow into a serial killer and the 80y old could be just an old... serial killer.
Anyway I was just making an absurd hyperbole.

But wait a minute, I wasn't criticizing your view of euthanasia as a mean for ending the pain of a human being.
I was criticizing your distorted view of old people and the generalization of their characteristics that you made in all your posts.
So don't act like you have been misunderstood cause I already stated twice I'm in favor of euthanasia in certain cases.