[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (DeeperRed @ Tuesday, May 8 2012, 16:24)

If Tycek didn't find it entertaining then he didn't find it entertaining. Everyone has different tastes, don't think yours are any superior because your film is more critically acclaimed.

I wasn't going after his tastes.
he's welcome to opinions.

the point I was making is that his opinions seem to indicate that he didn't fully understand the movie itself.
I don't consider my opinion superior because it is shared by more people than his.

I consider it better informed.

[AceRay]

I'm with Diablo on this one, I mean, he's not ripping into Tycek's opinion and calling him an idiot, he's just explaining how FMJ can be taken as a satire. Anyway, don't take offence.

[DeeperRed]

Diablo you pointed to others list and other critics. You were trying to put some superiority on your opinion. You just can't accept the fact that he preferred the other.

And PinkFloyd it really has nothing to do with it being a childhood film for me. I appreciated FMJ, the direction was fantastic but I just can't watch it again because it just didn't find myself having fun in the traditional sense when watching. I liked the whole mental aspect of it, the breakdown of Pyle but there's just little fun to be had (for me). So don't be surprised if a few people vote starship troopers, a film that also sends a clear message but also being a film that can be watched alone or with a whole group of firends laughing along.

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (DeeperRed @ Tuesday, May 8 2012, 23:44)

Diablo you pointed to others list and other critics. You were trying to put some superiority on your opinion.

you can't put words in my mouth.
I never indicated that my position is superior to his or implied it. you can make assumptions about what I meant, but this doesn't make you correct.

my goal in pointing out the fact that FMJ is (almost) always considered the better film was to highlight the reasons why that is.
and many of them are the reasons that I pointed out in my reply to Tycek.

I say again - and I implore you to recognize the difference - I wasn't going after his tastes.
my points had to do with aspects of the film that I believe he fundamentally misinterpreted.

yes, in my conclusion I mentioned that I thought FMJ was more entertaining than he did.
this is the only time I actually went after his opinion. the bulk of my post dealt with factors that are not opinion-based; Kubrick's intent, his themes, and character development.
I think Tycek simply got these things wrong.

[John The Grudge]

I actually didn't find Starship Troopers very entertaining at all. It's quite boring and forgettable.

[AceRay]

QUOTE (John The Grudge @ Wednesday, May 9 2012, 21:18)

I actually didn't find Starship Troopers very entertaining at all. It's quite boring and forgettable.

Yeah, I completely agree. I kinda see what they were trying to do with the satire but it just turning into a generic action game in Act 2. Definitely not a fan.

[Robinski]

The fact that you find effective attempted genocide of an entire species "generic action" is the best evidence of the satire being spot on, if anything.

[Marlowe.]

They are both satires on war. Full Metal Jacket is just better at in every aspect to the point where people think it's dead serious. It was a more enjoyable film for me, too. The war scenes are beautiful. And who can forget Animal Mother? Or Gunnery Sergent Hartman, or Pvt, Pyle?? All hilarious characters and all performed exceptionally. FMJ also has a wonderfully satirical soundtrack.

Starship has. . .giant bugs. . . and Denise Richards. It's all too in your face.

I vote Full Metal Jacket

[Tycek]

I would like to say something here.

First of all big thanks for DeeperRed for backing me up.

Second of all topics like this are based mostly on opinions. First you want to hear my opinion, but you discredit it by saying I didn't understand the movie. Is that fair, stating that someone's opinion is good, but someone's other (especially if both of them were backed up with some kind of evidence) isn't? How do you El_Diablo think your opinion is good? Because you share it with greater number of people? History knows cases like this.

I don't know if topics like this are good idea. Maybe we should change the name from GTAF 100 Top movies to El_Diablo's top 100 movies and skip the whole voting stage if he, biggest critic in cinematography, holier than thou gonna get butthurt everytime someone has different opinion that his.

[OchyGTA]

QUOTE (Tycek @ Wednesday, May 9 2012, 15:26)

I would like to say something here. First of all big thanks for DeeperRed for backing me up. Second of all topics like this are based mostly on opinions. First you want to hear my opinion, but you discredit it by saying I didn't understand the movie. Is that fair, stating that someone's opinion is good, but someone's other (especially if both of them were backed up with some kind of evidence) isn't? How do you El_Diablo think your opinion is good? Because you share it with greater number of people? History knows cases like this. I don't know if topics like this are good idea. Maybe we should change the name from GTAF 100 Top movies to El_Diablo's top 100 movies and skip the whole voting stage if he, biggest critic in cinematography, holier than thou gonna get butthurt everytime someone has different opinion that his.

To be honest, I'm inclined to agree with you. Whilst I feel FMJ is a good film, its nothing I haven't seen before i.e. Platoon (which I felt was far superior). I respect Kubrick as a director but do not dote over his work as some do. I've seen it twice and the only character I "got along with" was Joker. I am aware that the lack of screen-time to death symbolises how quick life was lost in Vietnam and also the short but strong relationships forged by the soldiers. However, it just wasn't particularly enjoyable as other Vietnam War films have been.
Starship Troopers on the other hand was just so entertaining. The characters were likeable, the story was good enough to keep my attention (I genuinely wanted to find out if they defeated the arachnoid's or not) and the atmosphere was just great. I had much more fun watching Starship Troopers than I did FMJ as I felt it was a better spectacle as well.
You've already said most of the stuff I was thinking so I kept this relatively short.
+1 for Starship Troopers

[ThePinkFloydSound]

I don't know why people seem butthurt over El_Diablo's posts. Maybe because I agree with him. I thought FMJ and Starship Troopers would be a forgone conclusion with an easy win for FMJ

Because of this topic, I'm watching both films tonight and I'm keeping an open mind. Who's with me?

For the moment before the topic closes I will post this. Statistically or if you look at each film on paper, FMJ would win. The final product comes down to taste and opinion.

Full Metal Jacket. Directed by celebrated world famous legend director, Stanley Kubrick who directed, A Clockwork Orange, The Shining, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Lolita, Dr. Strangelove. It's unusual to have a director have so many films in so many film lists. FMJ's story is based on a novel. So, firstly, it has to get greenlighted as a novel to be published. Then, Kubrick obviously thought it was great he proposed to make a film. It was written by Gustav Hasford, he was a war correspondent in the war. So the things you see have been directly influenced from being there, giving the film a sort of authenticity.

Starship Troopers: Directed by Paul Verhoeven. He directed Total Recall, Basic Instinct, Robocop..none of which will have such iconic status as Kubric films, maybe Total Recall, which is brilliant. ST is based on a book also and it written by a guy who does sci-fi books, Robert A. Heinlein and the screenplay was written by Edward Neumeier who only seemed to write Robocop stuff.

Anyway, I'm watching the 2 tonight. It would be nice if others did too.

This post has been edited by ThePinkFloydSound on Wednesday, May 9 2012, 17:24

[Rusty Balls]

A super fun flick but any jives Starship Troopers aims at the propaganda of war and the romanticizing of dying for it are clumsy and juvenile in comparison to the journey shown in Full Metal Jacket of ordinary men after they've fallen for such ideas.

Is that fifty words yet?

Full Metal Jacket. Clearly the better film here.

[DeeperRed]

PinkFloyd I'm not butthurt over diablos post. It just annoys me when people get a superiority complex on there opinion and try and blame them for not "getting it" and it really f*cking annoys me.

Loads of people I know GET Oldboy, the get what its trying to do, the message everything but they don't like it at all. Its defiantly somewhere in my top 10 films, now can i understand why someone does not feel the same way towards it. Its not comfortable viewing for them, The story is too far out for them etc but they have a reason besides not getting it.

FMJ requires you to have a strong connection to the characters to really enjoy the film. I didn't have that connection, and I guess Tycrk does either. So yes I got the film and I as I have stated before I liked it, because the tale itself was interesting and I love films about mentality and focusing on a new situation can change a man or bring out repressed ideas and feelings but for me to want to watch again, I am going to need a connection with the character because I need to feel the pain of the character. I can sit there interested in motions of what the characters going through but I am not interested how the character feels about it so it has little effect on me. Though I will say the direction is fantastic, as one would expect from Kubrick.

Starship Troopers doesn't have this either, but it does have some serious laughs. Its cheesy as f*ck, but thats need because it completes the whole effect its going for. Its presenting its satirical message so obviously that is hilarious. Its not trying to do it subtly because it want to slap its audience in the face with its message and it does it usually a hilarious manor. The whole metaphor is uses as well is so ridiculous I also enjoy it for its ott nature. Do I have any real connection to the characters ? no but thats not what this film is going for. I enjoy the spectacle and the gags, as well as how in your face the put the message.

Anyway I am rambling.

This post has been edited by DeeperRed on Wednesday, May 9 2012, 22:22

[Diggdydog]

Boom! I've been waiting for this!

First of all, Starship Troopers just didn't do it for me. I can't quite describe why but I just really struggled to connect with the characters and care about their plight. Maybe that's just me and I should give it a watch again and maybe I would change my views, who knows?


Still, I love Full Metal Jacket. Easily one of my Top Ten favourite films of all times. I just love the tension, the chaos and just how downright shocking some of the scenes are. I feel it rally delves into the mentality of Vietnam Soldiers. It really shows how they are meant to just be killing machines but are obviously burdened with a conscience and a sense of morality. Even with all the humour, light hearted joking I still feel FMJ is one of the most terrifying films ever released. I remember the feeling I got after I finished watching it. I was just in a state of shock. Not many directors can pull off such dramatic and tense science but Kubrick seemed to manage it very well indeed.

+1 to Full Metal Jacket

[El_Diablo]

QUOTE (Tycek @ Wednesday, May 9 2012, 08:26)

Maybe we should change the name from GTAF 100 Top movies to El_Diablo's top 100 movies and skip the whole voting stage

ok so let me get this straight.

you're entitled to your opinion.
but I'm not entitled to a counter opinion?

I didn't challenge everyone who voted for Starship Troopers.
I challenged you because - as I clearly pointed out more than once - I think your opinion was based on a fundamental misinterpretation. the bulk of my post dealt with your critique of FMJ's themes and characters, NOT your statement about personal enjoyment or entertainment. that was merely an afterthought.

the majority of my counterpoint had to do with aspects of your vote that were NOT opinion-based.

QUOTE

if he, biggest critic in cinematography,

hyperbole much?
calm down...

QUOTE

holier than thou gonna get butthurt everytime someone has different opinion that his.

seriously; hyperbole much?
calm down.
are you blind, daft, or pretending to be ignorant?

look at all the other voting topics in this forum.
this is the ONLY ONE I have decided to reply to and/or take issue with.

people disagree with me all the time.
I don't "get butthurt every time." I ignore the vast majority of cases in which people disagree with me. I rarely reply to them because I know it's fruitless.

so don't make stupid statements if you don't want people to think you're stupid.
if anyone is exhibiting "butthurt" behavior here, it's you. calling me "holier than thou" and the biggest critic just because I called you out.

QUOTE (DeeperRed @ Wednesday, May 9 2012, 14:34)

It just annoys me when people get a superiority complex on there opinion and try and blame them for not "getting it" and it really f*cking annoys me.

I say again: you can't put words in my mouth or apply your own assumptions to my intent.
I mean, you could, but it doesn't make you right.

my comments had nothing to do with a belief in the superior or inferior.
you're the only one who has ascribed that to me.

why?
I dunno. you seem to think it has something to do with the fact that I highlighted other Top 100-type lists.

but again, I only brought that up to highlight the reasons why that is; the same exact reasons that I explained to Tycek.
the ones that had nothing to do with opinion.

you and Ty are only digging deeper holes for yourselves.
I suggest you let it go...

[ThePinkFloydSound]

DeeperRed, I hear what you're saying. All valid reasons for you, to vote for that film. Personally, for the very same reasons you voted for Starship Troopers is the very same reasons I went against it.

It's like comparing a Louis Theroux documentary about Paedophiles to MTV's 16 and pregnant. Both are supposed to be representations of reality highlighting and issues in peoples lives. One is BBC, quality, with a difficult subject matter about Paedos but very entertaining. Not sure I'd relate to them. The other is a more exploitive program that doesn't really highlight any new issues, doesn't offer much thought-provoktion but I'm sure some people may find it more fun or digestible than Louis Theroux.

I'm going to go with Louis Theroux. I know the quality it better than its MTV thrash counterpart.

Also, did you not feel for the characters going to war? Did you not empathise with the characters? What about Pyle? Did you not think it was sad what happened to him? Everyone knows someone like him in school that was bullied. Maybe it's hard to digest for some people knowing that this film was a reality in some form or another to real people. I enjoy that. That's where I can relate to the characters because I know that people went through this pain.

[DeeperRed]

Honestly, I didn't have any real connection with the characters. I mean I felt bad for Pyle but it was how I would feel for anyone getting bullied the suicide bit is strong, but I still did not feel emotionally engaged. I should of pointed out earlier that I am not a huge fan of war films, I don't know why but I rarely enjoy them so that would of defiantly been a contributing factor.

Starship Troopers to me is not trashy. Its an over the top parody of various things sending a message using such a ridiculous metaphor, cheesy dialog, painfully cliche characters and then to juxtapose the camp feeling some serious ultra-violence . There is not a moment of the film when I haven't got a smile plastered across my face and the bug battles themselves are fantastic.

I think it really comes down to me is that, I found Full Metal Jacket interesting and I am glad I watched it however I found Starship Troopers enjoyable, must of watched it over 10 times in my short life time. I do love Kubrick with Clockwork Orange/Shinning being some piece of cinema I adore and have watched both many times.

[Indi]

Voting closed.

Full Metal Jacket wins.