[Tom Toole]

Subjective relates to the pathos - the world of feelings. If something is pleasant then it is good. If something is unpleasant it is bad.

Objective relates to the logos - the world of thought. If something is drawn from logical and scientific data then it is true.

Are these definitions sufficient? please add to them, modify them, as you see fit.

[Otter]

As far as Objectivity, thought is probably the wrong word. Dispassionate logic.

[K^2]

I think it would be better to say that subjective is based on beliefs rather than just feelings.

[Tom Toole]

Subjective:
1 beliefs
2 feelings
3 all that is not objective

Objective:
1 disspassionate logic
2 Scientific
3 What is agreed upon by all parties to be the foundation of knowledge
4 Mathematics
5 Grammatical
6 Structural

[Canofceleri]

It's simple, subjectivity is perception and objectivity is truth. (P) Taxi Driver is Martin Scorsese's best film. (O) Taxi Driver was a film directed by Martin Scorsese.

[Tom Toole]

QUOTE (Candarelli @ Feb 26 2007, 21:00)

It's simple, subjectivity is perception and objectivity is truth. (P) Taxi Driver is Martin Scorsese's best film. (O) Taxi Driver was a film directed by Martin Scorsese.

but isn't truth what is perceived? As I understand it, "Taxi Driver was a film directed by martin Scorsese" counts as history.

Subjective
1 beliefs
2 feelings
3 perception
4 judgements of quality
5 Opinion

Objective:
1 disspassionate logic
2 Scientific
3 What is agreed upon by all parties to be the foundation of knowledge
4 Mathematics
5 Grammatical
6 Structural
7 History
8 True

[Canofceleri]

I'd say you pinned it, Tom.

[spoof]

I would posit that perhaps only no. 4 is truly objective from the “objective” list. Discuss

[Tom Toole]

Spoof, it is interesting that you would say that.
I believe Bertrand russel proved that mathematics is merely simbolic logic.
Philosophy today seems very mathematical.

Didn't Kant say something about the objective always being perceived through experience and thus through the subjective?

Subjective: Personal Truth including beliefs, feelings, perceptions, judgements of quality, Opinions

Objective: Universal Truth including mathematics, logic

Perhaps it could be said that science is between completely objective and completely subjective? because it requires human perception?

[spoof]

Perhaps, I should have drawn more attention to the inverted commas surrounding the term objective

Objective:
1 disspassionate logic
2 Scientific
3 What is agreed upon by all parties to be the foundation of knowledge
4 Mathematics
5 Grammatical
6 Structural

1 – I would posit there is no such thing, given we are merely human.
2 – Scientific is an extremely ambiguous term at best
3 – Epistemology, once again- we are merely human
4- The closest thing to a best guess
5 – Ever changing (unfortunately)
6 – See number 5.


Hence my comment pertaining to No.4.

[Otter]

Well, to define is inherently subjective anyhow, isn't it?

I stick by dispassionate logic. It may not be possible, but by golly, objectivity isn't possible. Of course, I'm being incredibly subjective.

[spoof]

QUOTE (Otter @ Mar 10 2007, 22:03)

Well, to define is inherently subjective anyhow, isn't it? I stick by dispassionate logic. It may not be possible, but by golly, objectivity isn't possible.  Of course, I'm being incredibly subjective.

Indeed, but there’s not really much else we can do, is there?

[Otter]

QUOTE (spoof @ Mar 10 2007, 14:39)

QUOTE (Otter @ Mar 10 2007, 22:03) Well, to define is inherently subjective anyhow, isn't it? I stick by dispassionate logic. It may not be possible, but by golly, objectivity isn't possible.  Of course, I'm being incredibly subjective. Indeed, but there’s not really much else we can do, is there?

From an objective point of view?

[spoof]

From a completely subjective POV

[Tom Toole]

QUOTE (spoof @ Mar 10 2007, 21:43)

Objective: 1 disspassionate logic 1 – I would posit there is no such thing, given we are merely human. 4 Mathematics 4- The closest thing to a best guess 5 Grammatical 5 – Ever changing (unfortunately)

Emotions are strangely absent from the current definitions, yet they seem to me the most important thing about subjective points of view - a person without emotions is not a person - is it?

In regards to the existence disspassionate logic, I think autistics or computers would have dispassionate logic, furthermore one could have disspassionate logic in certain areas and not others, no?

Mathematics? If mathematics is symbolic logic, and logic can be spoken in another language, then it it is a merely grammar - with many grammatical structures ruling it's usage.



Subjective: POV is of being subjected to or affected emotionally by "topic".
Examples: A Christian speaking of Christianity. An African American speaking of racism. A soldier speaking of his commanding officer.

Objective: POV is not subjected to or affected (emotionally) by "topic"
Examples: Technical manual on using keyboard. Wikipedia article on electrons. Google results report.


I think it must be the case that one can be objective about subjective matters, just as one can be subjective about objective matters. You can love your technical manual on using a keyboard and make it into a religion. You can make statistics on the number of complaints filed against a company for bad service.

[spoof]

QUOTE (Tom Toole @ Mar 16 2007, 21:06)

QUOTE (spoof @ Mar 10 2007, 21:43) Objective: 1 disspassionate logic 1 – I would posit there is no such thing, given we are merely human. 4 Mathematics 4- The closest thing to a best guess 5 Grammatical 5 – Ever changing (unfortunately) Emotions are strangely absent from the current definitions, yet they seem to me the most important thing about subjective points of view - a person without emotions is not a person - is it?

My comments were based on your previous suggested notions of objectivity, and obviously (given they pertained to objectivity) , emotion was less than included in that which you quoted. Rational (objective) decision making and emotive decision making tend to be mutually exclusive, for the most part.

QUOTE

Mathematics? If mathematics is symbolic logic, and logic can be spoken in another language, then it it is a merely grammar - with many grammatical structures ruling it's usage

Mathematics may not be symbolic logic, why do you think I deemed it “the closest thing to a best guess"?

QUOTE

Subjective: POV is of being subjected to or affected emotionally by "topic". Examples: A Christian speaking of Christianity. An African American speaking of racism. A soldier speaking of his commanding officer. Objective: POV is not subjected to or affected (emotionally) by "topic" Examples: Technical manual on using keyboard. Wikipedia article on electrons. Google results report

On the contrary:

subjective: everything you or anybody else says, does, or thinks.

(to err is human after all)

objective: don’t ask me, I’m only human and pure objectivity is beyond my frail cognition.


Look at you own examples. The subjective pertained to a person, the objective related to information. Only people have the luxury of being emotive and subjective, manuals and articles are not afforded the same luxury - it’s a sentience thing

[K^2]

It's not really about being human. There are only two ways to stay perfectly objective. You either must know everything, or you must not make any statements, because they will be biased by the incomplete knowledge. Former is impossible, and not just to humans, and the later is pointless. So subjectivity is not just a human thing. It's the nature of all information. The only question is how subjective you want to be.

[soleil]

I think it's even simpler than what you guys are saying... Subjective means it is according to the subject. Objective means it is according to the object.

If you have an object (Empire State Building) and you have 10 subjects (people) standing around, not knowing the true height, and they all guess the height... you have 10 subjective numbers because you have 10 numbers according to the respective subject. Then the real number (I don't know what it is) is the objective number, as that numebr depends only on the object.

The two terms comes from language terms... subject of a sentence, object of a sentence.

[K^2]

soleil, subject.

[TheJkWhoSaysNi]

QUOTE (K^2 @ Mar 20 2007, 06:17)

It's not really about being human. There are only two ways to stay perfectly objective. You either must know everything, or you must not make any statements, because they will be biased by the incomplete knowledge. Former is impossible, and not just to humans, and the later is pointless. So subjectivity is not just a human thing. It's the nature of all information. The only question is how subjective you want to be.

I disagree.

It's defiantly possible to stay objective. Listing facts would be objective. e.g saying "Everest is the tallest mountain in the world." is completely objective. While a subjective statement would be "K-2 looks taller." since it's based on one persons perceptions.

For a statement to be objective, the subject of the statement has to be in some way quantifiable or shown to be true based on previously defined rules (scientific, grammatical, mathematical, etc).