[JasonB]

This topic is about the planning, development, review and public discussion of the Myriad Islands train. The train is confirmed to be a part of Myriad Islands and it is likely going to be a standard trainline which goes under, on and above the surface of the islands.

I urge everyone who posts in here to keep it on-topic, spam and flame free. I may not have any sort of mod-powers, but you can bet that if I did I wouldn't hesitate to delete any irrelevant post. Keep it clean, people. Actually scratch that, I have mod-powers now, but hopefully the topic will stay clean and productive so I wont need to use them.

At present the train line is being planned by Cerbera and I, with input from the higher-ups of Myriad, and the train line will be built on the northern islands before they are released for the SA engine.

Current Stage of Development: Planning/Review
Curerently, the train track plans are nearing completion, with praise from Respawn and illspirit, the plans will be finalised, station positions can be planned and then the tracks can be modelled.
You can view the most recent track plans here:
http://projectcerbera.com/gtasa/myriad/railway/idea-06.jpg

Information below is outdated and inaccurate now. Thanks

At the moment, the train is still in developmental stages. Overview of the islands topography and development of the land - both current and planned.

Illcom:
Illcom will absolutely not accomadate a level with surface track, achieiving an overhead track would be hard because of the curvy design of the roads which makes it difficult to follow the road, and crossing across lots is likely out of the question, the train needs to access central illcom, and that is where a lot of finished development is concentrated, and the nature of the development there makes over-head train access next to impossible. An underground track will likely be needed for illcom.
The idea of an offshore track has been brought up again by Cerbera, this time it is a far more detailed idea than when it was previously brought up.

Illsub:
Doesn't need train access, it is primarily a mansion island, and the amount of people arriving/leaving there would be minimal.

Northern Islands:
Since lot claiming and construction hasn't begun on these islands (with the exception of the soccer stadium reservation), planning for this area is a lot easier. These islands will most likely be a combination of surface and overhead rail. Surface rail has to keep lot interference (i.e. making lots unusable or difficult to use) and keep road interference as low as possible. The track also has to avoid sudden steep hills (although the amount of incline for the track may exceed that of a real track, this is acceptable) while still getting to the majority of the island.

Necrosis:
Unknown, I have little knowledge about this island and if the train is to go through Necrosis planning and modelling will probably be left to Respawn.

My Island (unnamed):
Obviously I will plan and model everything for this personally, but it's position in Myriad is still unconfirmed, so this creates a temporary obstacle.

A map (or maps) will be drawn up by Cerbera and I and sent to the higher-ups for review before being posted to the public for your review. Then the real fun starts.

I hope I havn't left anything out from the planning section. New sections such as review and development will be added when necessary.

I know I didn't update this post with comprehensive info, but reading the topic is even better.

[Mark]

Cool...btw how many types of train are available...3? Tram, Normal train and brown streak yeah? - GTAuron

[JasonB]

Yeah, in SA there were 3 types of trains that ran on the specified train paths. It is likely that we wont need the tram at all, and I'm not sure if the fact that you can't get in it is hardcoded or not, because we are probably only having one huge track for all of Myriad.
Edit: This should also be added to the Myriad Directory.

[AleXXX]

Illcom...
This map of the underground stations (yellow colour - underground stations). I think, it'll approach...
Underground map...

[steve-m]

QUOTE (JasonB @ Sep 30 2005, 07:58)

My Island (unnamed): Obviously I will plan and model everything for this personally, but it's position in Myriad is still unconfirmed, so this creates a temporary obstacle.

ATM it seems we'll move the map to the NW corner, so your island will be in the place you originally wanted it to be (east of illcom). Quite a difficult decision...

QUOTE (JasonB @ Sep 30 2005, 13:23)

Edit: This should also be added to the Myriad Directory.

Done.

[AleXXX]

QUOTE (steve-m @ Sep 30 2005, 12:29)

QUOTE (JasonB @ Sep 30 2005, 07:58) My Island (unnamed): Obviously I will plan and model everything for this personally, but it's position in Myriad is still unconfirmed, so this creates a temporary obstacle. ATM it seems we'll move the map to the NW corner, so your island will be in the place you originally wanted it to be (east of illcom). Quite a difficult decision... QUOTE (JasonB @ Sep 30 2005, 13:23) Edit: This should also be added to the Myriad Directory. Done.

Also island can be arranged in the south of the illcom - it is not necessary of any movings.

[Knife]

Dramatic train missions!

Knife hides

[Cerbera]

I've added JasonB to MSN, which is a start.


First Stages
The latest render was linked to me my illspirit a day or two ago. Since the islands are moving, this render just gives a loose indication of how much of the environment is going to be taken by the current MI islands. Getting a top-down render of Necrosis at this same scale would be very useful for the planning. Will the islands take long to move in the modelling programs so we can get the render we will actually work from?

To begin some rough preliminary planning we will need some renders at about 3,000 x 3,000 or 6,000 x 6,000 pixels for good printing:-

• The textured landscape so we can see geographic details.
• A heightmap or contour model so we can see actual height changes from top-down view.
• A wireframe of the landscape for drawing on.
• If possible, all the buildings on illCOM should be shown.

That's the render wishlist, from my perspective anyway.

I have created railway systems in Uphold the Law (GTA1), Pacific City (GTA1) and a subway system for MultiSlayer (GTA2). These cube-based 2D games are a very different environment to the triangle-based 3D of MI. The basic principles of route planning, railway station positions and minimising interfeerence with exists buildings are pretty much the same.


Bridges
In order for the railway to be realistic, it must allow big ships to get under or through the bridges. MI might not actually have any big ships as vehicles but it must be a possibility. It'll look silly to have the docks on illcom and Necrosis blocked from shipping by the railway. Using mission script to coordinate lift bridges, ramp bridges and/or swing bridges would be one solution. If the train was approaching, the moving part would stay closed. If no train was anywhere near, then it would open at timed intervals like the GTA3 lift bridge did.

For the bridge between Necrosis and illCOM it may be possible to just have extremely long, shallow slopes. The most realistic type of moving railway bridge would be something like Ramsey swing bridge in the Isle of Man. Swing bridges rotate instead of rise, which is why they are used for moving heavy railway bridge sections.

There will probably need to be some slopes in order to accomodate the difference in height between the South islands and the North islands. Railways do have slopes and I agree with JasonB that we can get away with steeper slopes than reality. We must avoid the stupidly steep slopes and sharp turns of GTA3, imho.


illCOM

1. It might be possible for the railway to be on a flyover which ran above lots, with one or more above-ground stations a bit like in Portland of GTA3. This relies on there being a route of low buildings which could be traversed without any stupidly sharp corners. From train journeys around the UK, particularly to Southampton, I know that trains do relatively tight curves in cities. Maybe not tight enough for illCOM, though.
2. If a route cannot be found over illCOM then an offshore railway would be used. The station would be on a new island, called illSTA or something. Blatent and TGR have lots on the East side of illCOM which it seems might be removed from them, so either of their lots could be used to join the main four-lane road of illCOM to a new island. This would be a bit like the Ocean Docks area in Los Santos; a man-made island but for the railway station. It could have a multi-storey carpark, some little shops, a restaurant, etc. In fact, the illSTA island could be divided into lots like illSUB was.
3. Putting the railway underground for illCOM has been suggested by many people previously. However, I think this would be a bad idea as it would require the creation of massive slopes to make the train switch from running on the land of illRES, illURB and Necrosis. Where would these slopes go? Either you have stupidly steep slopes coming from bridges, like in the Easter Basin area of San Fierro or you have underground tunnels from illRES and Necrosis. But that doesn't solve the problem, since you would need a steep slope somewhere near Necrosis for the railway to meet the land and another slope somewhere for illRES. If the railway is underground for illCOM, it would have to be underground everywhere because illCOM is the lowest major island.

Of these options, I think 2 might work the best. Very little intrusion, no stupidly sharp corners and the railway station will have a good road link to the main illCOM island. Another island would better justify the "Myriad Islands" project name, too.



illRES
I think a tunnel running through Black Mesa is a must-have. From which angle it will approach, how much it will curve, whether it will have an amount of slope and other things are not clear. If we do need a slope to get enough height for the hills of illURB, I think putting it inside the tunnel would be best as it would not be noticed quite so much.

1. Getting to Black Mesa in the first place has a couple of options. The easiest would be to enter it from the sea, coming from the South-west corner. Once inside the mountain, the railway could either curve to the West to run along the freeway and approach illURB from the East.
2. Alternatively, the railway could curve a gently to the North and then gently around to the West, ready to approach illURB's North-east corner.

Of these options, I think 1 might work best as it has minimal intrusion. We don't need a railway station on illURB because it is not a big center of people or business.


illURB

1. The railway would run on top of the cliffs, so there would be minimal interfeerence with roads and lots. A station could be placed on the North-East section of the island, on the edge of the cliff. There railway could then sink into a subway which would curve towards the South so it did not pop out in the Northern bay of illURB. The section were it sinks into the ground would be something like how Eurostar does it on the UK side.
2. If there is quite a sharp curve inside Black Mesa, then the railway could exit from the mountain in a flyover which ran alongside the North edge of the freeway. It would remain striaght, so there would be a bridge, tunnel or level crossing where the freeway turns North to go over the bridge. The railway bridge would be to the South of this bridge. If the railway began to curve south before the bridge and the bridge were curved towards the south, it might be possible for the railway to round around the South-east coastline of illURB. Otherwise, it would need to be a bit like how the railway runs between houses in the Prickle Pine area of Las Venturas in GTASA.
3. An extremely long flyover across the South-east area would be another possibility but woud interfeer with a lot of properties, roads and would require an epic amount of modelling. Would also mean that shadows would have to be added to any buildings, road and land which was placed underneath the flyover sections.

Of these options, I think 1 might work best since it has minimal intrusion. It would also allow a shallow, underground slope to be used so the railway could be brought to a level suitable for crossing the Necrosis island.


Other islands
I've recently seen some screenshots of JasonB's island and it is a major center of population which should have a railway link, imho. I don't know where it will be positioned after the GTAVC islands have moved, so there is currently no way to plan how to include it in the route.


Summary
These are just ideas. I think posting our rough plans directly into this topic and having them reviewed by everyone straight away would be best. The beaurocracy of sending them to the Council, then having them sent back, then sending them again, then getting an approval, then posting them to get them reviewed would create drastic delays and frustration, imho. Nothing will be made until all relevant people agree on a design, so we should get as much feedback as possible to make sure there are no problems.

It's clear to me that JasonB is a serious modder, so I look forward to working with him.


Rough Ideas
If the islands are moved to the North-West corner, I think it would make the environment look something like this:

1024 x 1024, 55.6kB.

My first general idea for the railway route:

1024 x 1024, 59.6kB

This is an extremely rough design. It's just to help people visualise the sort of railway route I'm thinking of.

This post has been edited by Cerbera on Sunday, Oct 2 2005, 16:44

[Knife]

There is more spare room in SA than I thought

Illcom - should stay underground me thinks

North - if it fits it should be at ground level

other islands - up to authors I guess

What a short post compaired to Cerbera's

[Gforce]

just my 10 cents, don't forget that trains in SA run in both direction's..............

@Cerbera.............Welcome back to Myriad, it's long overdue

[AleXXX]

QUOTE (Cerbera @ Sep 30 2005, 17:06)

First Stages The latest render was linked to me my illspirit a day or two ago. Since the islands are moving, this render just gives a loose indication of how much of the environment is going to be taken by the current MI islands. Getting a top-down render of Necrosis at this same scale would be very useful for the planning. Will the islands take long to move in the modelling programs so we can get the render we will actually work from?

Ye. Someone already spread this render image in PPT or MI SA Conversion. Thus, we can make 9 BIG islands. I now create a basis for my island (if you do not want to put it in Myriad, I use it in other purposes) and I'll show progress soon!

About underground:
For this purpose it is necessary to make:
1. Station. Will suffice 1 model.
2. Tunnel: To simulate in 3dsmax all. Steve M. already spoke, that in SA Col-limit < 13000 faces.
3. Possible to use a train from SA, but better to make new.

QUOTE

If possible, all the buildings on illCOM should be shown.

Kam's Map IO script.

[Cran.]

I think it would be a good idea to make some pre-modeled parts, and piece them together, i.e, you could make a left/right short turn, left/right long turn, s bend etc. You know, kinda like the pieces you see in Roller Coaster tycoon.

[JasonB]

Yeah, when we do get around to modelling the train track, it's all going to be modular pieces which can be easily pieced together and re-used, only making custom track sections where necessary. This way we save a lot of IDE slots, game memory, work and effort, and so forth.
Tomorrow I'll put some effort into looking at the map of Myriad and planning an appropriate track.

[steve-m]

I think it'd be more work, because you have to plan the track more exactly, and it takes some time to assemble all the parts so they fit perfectly together. It would be much better to have unique parts. It just needs modelling for example a 20m long track piece, which is then copied, welded together to a long one, and finally path deformed. Also, this way we could have realistic prelighting on the tracks - if we were re-using them, parts that are rotated 180° had sunlight comming from the wrong side, and that'd look odd, wouldn't it?

The ammount of IDs is no problem in SA. And btw, there the roads and tracks aren't re-used either, that's only done in GTA3, which was modelled by a bunch of noobs.

[Mark]

LOL! N00bs indeed .

btw, that proposed route would put the track straight where JasonBs island would be. Well, where he wants it to be anyway. Any reason why his island can't be moved even further east and an island created in the middle of the 2 to serve both islands? Or considering Jason will be modelling a large amount of it.....just link it into his island? - GTAuron

[JasonB]

QUOTE (steve-m @ Oct 3 2005, 22:49)

I think it'd be more work, because you have to plan the track more exactly, and it takes some time to assemble all the parts so they fit perfectly together. It would be much better to have unique parts. It just needs modelling for example a 20m long track piece, which is then copied, welded together to a long one, and finally path deformed. Also, this way we could have realistic prelighting on the tracks - if we were re-using them, parts that are rotated 180° had sunlight comming from the wrong side, and that'd look odd, wouldn't it? The ammount of IDs is no problem in SA. And btw, there the roads and tracks aren't re-used either, that's only done in GTA3, which was modelled by a bunch of noobs.

Hmmm, I suppose you are right. When I spoke of re-using parts I mostly meant underground sections, since above ground is alot more varied and would be stupid to re-use parts. And no question that GTA3 was modelled by n00bs, the quality of the models is shocking at best. I mean they use dozens, if not hundreds of faces when 2 would have sufficed. Stupid Rockstar.

Anyway, a day late I made a very basic sketch of what I think the rail system be like.

The red line indicates that the section of track there would be underground.
Blue/Green indicated ground level or higher. Also blue/green indicate a different route I think the track could take, and only one way would be used. So I think after it passes through my island it should go north up through Black Mesa and then west across to the other island or continue west through the mass of the island.

Also as you can see, I poorly slapped on a top-down render of my island where it is going to go. No comments on the hippy park please.

[Knife]

I definately think there should be a bridge with a train track running accross it

And like I said before we have to make it look like it's supposed to be there not like we suddenly thought about a train and slapped a track on the land.

Does anyone know where a station can go on illcom?

Will the underground look like the gta3 underground?

Here I am asking questions that people probably don't know


w00t, a smilie after evey sentence

[JasonB]

Ach! Smiley whore!

<3

Anyway, crossing between the two northern islands there will be a train bridge there.

And the train track, hopefully, will look professional and not something slapped on at the last minute. We are going for the best result here.

Illcom, if the track runs through (that is, under it) the stations will have to go underground, which I don't mind, I like underground stations. But on the northern islands the stations will be above ground.

[Mark]

What i wanna see with this is a bridge with a road on the top, and train-tracks running underneath it.

Nice island you got going there Jason, f*cking huge space cool

- GTAuron

[steve-m]

QUOTE (JasonB @ Oct 5 2005, 12:02)

Hmmm, I suppose you are right. When I spoke of re-using parts I mostly meant underground sections, since above ground is alot more varied and would be stupid to re-use parts. And no question that GTA3 was modelled by n00bs, the quality of the models is shocking at best. I mean they use dozens, if not hundreds of faces when 2 would have sufficed. Stupid Rockstar.

Of course, for tunnels that'd work perfectly, there we won't have problems with prelighting, since all segments are lighted similarly (either one lamp in the middle of the segment, so it would be dark at the ends, or continuous stripes of lights like in the tunnels through Mt. Chiliad).

Polycount is not just a problem in GTA3, also SA has several spots where they just wasted them (example). But look at the crappy road layout in III for example, especially Shoreside Vale. Unnatural bends, skewed roads, no blends between street and dirt, ...