[GTAvanja]

QUOTE (K^2 @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 02:07)

You asked why logic is true. That's a silly question.

So you don't know an answer, or you don't want to give me the answer? Either one works for me.

And I never said that intuition should be used in a debate. I was thinking about using logic, common sense, intuition, reason, whatever else you can think of in real life when you can't make a conclusion based solely on logic. Without all these things, scientists couldn't dismiss the dumbest theories. And if someone ordered them to work on those theories it would be a disaster, a waste of time and resources as scientists embark on a quest to prove that pink underwater wish-granting unicorns exists. Come on, that's just silly.

I also said that logic is the basis and things like common sense are additions you should never dismiss. Irrational people use what they think is reason and common sense without using logic at all, or using it in a wrong way. Rational people use logic as basis, and common sense, reason etc. is like cement that binds it all together and makes it conclusive. That's why we don't doubt the Earth is round and that it revolves around the Sun. Naked logic alone doesn't prove much because we could simply pile up theories that debunk previous logical conclusions. Which you proved by not being able to answer why logic is true.

Logic is true because we need it to be true. Our sense or reason is telling us that it's true. How did we develop logic, if not by using reason? We didn't develop logic using logic.

And now you're just trying to avoid saying that you believe in your axioms. How else would you select them? Of course you believe in them. You believe they will lead you to correct conclusions. But it's not a religious belief. Which brings us back to the beginning where I said that not every belief is a religious one. Some beliefs are just convenient and we have to accept them if we want to be able to make any decision.

This post has been edited by GTAvanja on Friday, Oct 14 2011, 01:42

[K^2]

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Thursday, Oct 13 2011, 21:32)

QUOTE (K^2 @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 02:07) You asked why logic is true. That's a silly question. So you don't know an answer, or you don't want to give me the answer? Either one works for me.

QUOTE (me)

Logic is just an algebra. It cannot be wrong.

That was two posts ago. Go back and read it all over again. Maybe it will work the second time.

QUOTE

And I never said that intuition should be used in a debate. I was thinking about using logic, common sense, intuition, reason, whatever else you can think of in real life when you can't make a conclusion based solely on logic.

No. If you can't come up with conclusion based on logic, you can't come up with a conclusion. That's it. And I've never once seen a situation where this is actually a problem. You STILL haven't given me an example of a situation where this is a problem, despite me telling you that this is what you need to make a case for the past, oh, three pages or so. Give me an example, or stop making stuff up.

QUOTE

Without all these things, scientists couldn't dismiss the dumbest theories. And if someone ordered them to work on those theories it would be a disaster, a waste of time and resources as scientists embark on a quest to prove that pink underwater wish-granting unicorns exists. Come on, that's just silly.

This is getting frustrating. That's not why scientists dismiss these hypothesis. Never, ever, ever, has there been a hypothesis that was dismissed because it was "silly", or "absurd", or "against common sense", or "unintuitive". There are plenty of legitimate and completely logical reasons to dismiss the magic unicorn hypothesis. Why don't you quote me from Wikipedia how the scientific method works. Maybe some of that will settle in your head.

QUOTE

I also said that logic is the basis and things like common sense are additions you should never dismiss.

Common sense is the reason why Shroedinger tried to dismiss Quantum Mechanics. You should ignore common sense when looking for how things work, because your perception of the world is limited to very specific scales, and your intuition and common sense about grander things are so far off it's not funny. If common sense guides your logic, you're already lost.

QUOTE

Logic is true because we need it to be true. Our sense or reason is telling us that it's true. How did we develop logic, if not by using reason? We didn't develop logic using logic.

That's how people tried to develop logic and all other thinking back in the dark ages. They failed. Miserably. That's why modern algebra exists.

QUOTE

And now you're just trying to avoid saying that you believe in your axioms. How else would you select them? Of course you believe in them. You believe they will lead you to correct conclusions.

This is where I say, "I don't," and you say, "do to," and then I call you a doodoo head, and you say that you'll tell teacher on me. We've been over this. Belief is not required at any stage. Either show me a contradiction, or stop spewing nonsense.

[Chimpso]

I'm quite an atheist myself. And to be honest, I couldn't care less if this man who I've just met is religious or if he has beliefs. I can acknowledge the good things that Christianity has done for the world, but I can also acknowledge the bad.

There are two instances where I have had a problem with Christianity. The first is when it is used to argue that something is not "right" in the eyes of god ect. For example, one preacher claimed that Pokemon and Minecraft were evil and the work of the devil, that's when I start to get a little annoyed and could not help laughing.

The second instance is when I'm having god shoved in my face. An example? School. I got to a Christian school where two lessons are taken up with RAVE (Religous and Values Education). Ok, sure, two lessons is not an insanely big deal, but why do I have to spend it learning about something I don't believe in. Instead of learning about god, those two lessons are spent with me gathering more evidence against Christianity (and presenting many of them to the teacher) while doing my best to still not be offensive or hurt anyone.

Do I respect religious beliefs? No.
Do I respect people? Yes.

If someone is Christian, I'm more than happy to associate with them, but as long as they acknowledge me as an atheist and understand that I don't believe what they believe, and they don't expect me to partake in activities related to their religion.

Just because your cult has billions of followers, doesn't mean everyone respects it.


Oh, and your neighbor was an absolute dick by the way. If anyone was being too harsh there, it was him.

[GTAvanja]

QUOTE (K^2 @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 07:38)

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Thursday, Oct 13 2011, 21:32) QUOTE (K^2 @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 02:07) You asked why logic is true. That's a silly question. So you don't know an answer, or you don't want to give me the answer? Either one works for me. QUOTE (me) Logic is just an algebra. It cannot be wrong. That was two posts ago. Go back and read it all over again. Maybe it will work the second time.

And you still don't understand what I mean. This is fascinating. I know algebra can't be wrong. But algebra didn't always exist either. Our mind had to come to a realization of algebra. And how did our mind do that? How did we notice those rules? How did we develop algebra?

[Moonshield]

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 06:23)

QUOTE (K^2 @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 07:38) QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Thursday, Oct 13 2011, 21:32) QUOTE (K^2 @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 02:07) You asked why logic is true. That's a silly question. So you don't know an answer, or you don't want to give me the answer? Either one works for me. QUOTE (me) Logic is just an algebra. It cannot be wrong. That was two posts ago. Go back and read it all over again. Maybe it will work the second time. And you still don't understand what I mean. This is fascinating. I know algebra can't be wrong. But algebra didn't always exist either. Our mind had to come to a realization of algebra. And how did our mind do that? How did we notice those rules? How did we develop algebra?

HOW THE f*ck IS THIS ABOUT ATHEISM? Stay on topic or take it to PM.

[K^2]

QUOTE (Moonshield @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 08:40)

HOW THE f*ck IS THIS ABOUT ATHEISM? Stay on topic or take it to PM.

This discussion is instrumental to discussion of atheism. We are talking about fundamental cause of this universe. To understand that, we have to establish how we understand the universe. Without this discussion, any talk about atheism is pointless gum flapping. Or finger flapping, as the case may be.

QUOTE (GTAvanja)

And you still don't understand what I mean. This is fascinating. I know algebra can't be wrong. But algebra didn't always exist either. Our mind had to come to a realization of algebra. And how did our mind do that? How did we notice those rules? How did we develop algebra?

These rules aren't noticed. They are postulated. Many different algebras have existed over the ages. Some prove to be useful. They remain, and are taught to new generations. Roman number system had no concept of zero. Arabic system did. Algebra that makes use of zero gives rise to group of addition, which proved to be a powerful concept, and it remained. Neither Greeks nor Romans had concept of real numbers. These rose as necessity as concept of limits appeared. And so on. There is no "right" and "wrong" algebras. So you can't be reasoning out that this is the correct one. It just not how it works.

Logic, specifically, is a lot simpler than that, even. You want to qualify statements as true or false. The "true" and "false" are just labels. Which is which is not fundamentally relevant. What matters is that there are just these two groups. From that it follows that there are 16 possible operations. You can then show that only one of these operations is necessary, but it's customary to use 4 for easier and more intuitive reading. But none of it actually matters. You assign truth value to statements, and then you solve equation. That's it. There is no place where you need common sense or the force to guide you. If you keep applying rules consistently, you can only end up with logic.

[jackass2009]

QUOTE (General Goose @ Thursday, Sep 15 2011, 12:24)

And yeah, your neighbour sounds like a dickhead.

This and no, most Atheists (that I know at least) are very peaceful, chilled out dudes. It's small minded hypocrites like your neighbor who are. If you get another letter, file a harrassment lawsuit against your dickhead neighbor.

[Leftcoast]

QUOTE

This and no, most Atheists (that I know at least) are very peaceful, chilled out dudes. It's small minded hypocrites like your neighbor who are. If you get another letter, file a harrassment lawsuit against your dickhead neighbor.

And you never hear about agnostic rebels on the news taking over some poor down trodden peoples country.

[q_b]

People can be bad no matter if they are religious or not. As long as you don't shove your religion down my throat and you behave well I won't make a difference between you and an atheist. My best friend is actually religious (I'm atheist).

[Stefche]

QUOTE (Chimpso @ Friday, Oct 14 2011, 17:28)

I go to a Christian school where two lessons are taken up with RAVE (Religous and Values Education). Ok, sure, two lessons is not an insanely big deal, but why do I have to spend it learning about something I don't believe in.

QUOTE

I go to a Christian school

[ikt]

Well, most agressive *believers* don't even know what they are believing in.

[patrikje]

I'm replying to the original post. I think your neighbour is a disgusting person. Whatever believe he may have, to call you the devil and to rot in hell is a disgusting thing to say. If it wasn't for the meaning of it then it would be disgusting for the utter stupidity and ignorance of your neighbour. To just paint any non believer as a devil... But at the moment I'm worried about those children growing up in such a deluded environment. They will just grow up to be the same hating persons as their parents.

And now to answer the question, are atheïsts to aggressive? I think not, we can attack everything very aggressively but when it we do it to religion we are to aggressive. Why? We have to treat religion as something that is very precious and may never be attacked or you are a bad bad person? We should be able to challenge any religion and attack it. And as long as you are being mature and use some intelligence I don't know what is so aggressive about it. If you just start calling names and blindly attack religion without any real reason or arguments, then you are too aggressive. But I would rather say that you are stupid.

[Irviding]

QUOTE (patrikje @ Tuesday, Nov 15 2011, 15:05)

I'm replying to the original post. I think your neighbour is a disgusting person. Whatever believe he may have, to call you the devil and to rot in hell is a disgusting thing to say. If it wasn't for the meaning of it then it would be disgusting for the utter stupidity and ignorance of your neighbour. To just paint any non believer as a devil... But at the moment I'm worried about those children growing up in such a deluded environment. They will just grow up to be the same hating persons as their parents. And now to answer the question, are atheïsts to aggressive? I think not, we can attack everything very aggressively but when it we do it to religion we are to aggressive. Why? We have to treat religion as something that is very precious and may never be attacked or you are a bad bad person? We should be able to challenge any religion and attack it. And as long as you are being mature and use some intelligence I don't know what is so aggressive about it. If you just start calling names and blindly attack religion without any real reason or arguments, then you are too aggressive. But I would rather say that you are stupid.

According to Christian doctrine someone who is a non believer is by no means a devil anyway...