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 Grand Theft Auto IV
BUYG: Build Up Your Gang IV
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aragond  |
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We are the Aragond. We will bury you.
Group: Members
Joined: Aug 26, 2007
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| QUOTE (TheLostBiker @ Dec 30 2010, 02:45) | Can someone fill me in as to if I can start writing my Triad Intro? I've got a page already  |
Yes, feel free to start writing stories as of this instant.
When the new system is implemented, you will just pick-up where you left off. Simple as that.
Ignore this
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| aragond |
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We are the Aragond. We will bury you.
Group: Members
Joined: Aug 26, 2007
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| QUOTE (Slingaa @ Dec 31 2010, 02:04) | Noticied I'm on the purge list, but I've stated a few times I want to stay. I'll be moving to the Messina Family when they're put up though. I've sent this to Maverick, but I'll post it here anyway.
Chapter 1 earned $20.
Chapter 2 earned $24.
Chapter 3 earned $42.
Chapter 4 earned $48.
Chapter 5 earned $42. |
EXCELLENT work, Slingaa!! (Although you could have sent us to the precise post address.)
That's the way to do it! Get your money for nuthin and your chicks for... wut?
What I meant to say is everyone should do that, 'cuz BUYG Staff are gonna have a huge job checking out what you earned, bought and sold. If each individual lists it out, what you're claiming you did, it'll make the job a lot smaller.
I'll start:
With 30,944 words, the seventeen stories have earned $1,095 and blown $400 of it on the shotguns, leaving Aragond with $695.
This was not meant to be a burst of boasting, though I have enjoyed looking back over my own stories,  reminding me where I left the crew back in... May?!?!?!  I am loathe to double-post, so this one will be a son'm'beach.=============================================================================== A long, long time ago on a forum much like this one...| QUOTE (Maverick24 @ Apr 14 2010, 23:15) | IRT aragond
Congratulations on "Escalazione", Part Four. Your twisting tale is becoming a masterpiece. I praise the way you swap loosely between characters, not really creating a 'protagonist', but telling the story of a whole gang. I'm piecing the stories together now; this latest piece seems to be more encompassing of the gang than the previous episode. |
I never replied to this monster of a critique, Maverick, (nor can I find what notes I did write,) for which I apologise, 'cuz it deserved acknowledgement and a reply.
Firstly, my thanks for your praise of my work. It's not like we're getting paid for this, but copping acknowledgement of your hard work is a good substitute.
You're right. I didn't really set-out with a single protagonist in mind. Well, actually, I did, but he's not appeared in the stories yet and won't for some time.  So, in a sense it is an ensemble, and like most of those some characters are... make more frequent appearances than others, shall we say. This will become a little more obvious in the fourth episode (if I *ever* get around to finishing the dang thing!).
And the same thing goes for the enemies. Well, no, not quite.| QUOTE | A small critique of the narrative though is that the 'enemy' seems ill-defined and a bit confusing. We've had:
- Irishmen beating Franny up
- Paddy Kelly's (presumably an Irishman) goon attempting to hit Joel
- Some vagrants attacking Joel's daughter, probably hired by an unknown
- Vinny fighting a group of The Lost bikers: revenge on behalf of the Pegorinos
I know there is not a definite need to create a 'bad guy' type position for one particular group, and there are tangible benefits to not doing so, but without it the stories feel less connected and more like random acts of violence that the narrator has arbitratily picked to report on. I get the feeling that the story is still just getting going, and you are setting up story arcs now that could take a long time to develop. If this is the case I’m excited to see where it is going. But you set a challenge of maintaining a quality tempo and fresh ideas throughout a protracted narrative so that it doesn’t become stale. |
This is awesome that you're spelling-out precisely what I was seeking. Confusion. No single enemy. In part, this is to match the lack of a single key protagonist, to introduce ALL the characters, with their OWN battles to fight, their own enemies. Once we get rid of the clatter, the true enemy will appear and it will be all-hands on deck. By which time, you, my dear readers, should know the various characters reasonably well.
Rest assured, though, none of the stories is without purpose, and I don't mean that they're random-violence-so-you-can-get-to-know-the-characters-under-fire type of purpose. I mean that every one of those random acts plays a part in the overall tapestry of enemies, which should coalesce in coming episodes.
The problem is my massive ambitiousness, as you note, and my fear that while I may have all the ideas that piece all this together, I won't have the stamina to complete the required number of episodes to present it. Alternatively, I'll speed production of stories up to mitigate that possibility causing the quality to decline.| QUOTE | | If I can just return to part three for a moment. Why was Al wearing a full tuxedo-and-cummerbund when he was doing spy-work down at the Steinway? Or should I not be asking? |
No, seriously, it was a detail too insignificant to bother expanding upon. Let's just say he wasn't actually spying at that precise time. (But, good eye!!)| QUOTE | | The events for this story feel quite similar to Part Three's. There is a chase through the streets, crashing into people and cars and someone with an injured leg. A focus on knifes (even though part three had guns, knives still felt important), and an outnumbered fight in an alley. They’re very different stories still, but elements feel reused. Not that it is particularly a bad thing: it’s gritty and realistic. If you tried to do new things every time you’d end up turning to the ridiculous and extreme: the San Andreas disorder! |
San Andreas disorder indeed!
Again with the good eye! This did bother me, two chase scenes in the one episode, and, come time for production, I wouldn't have allowed it. But, in the context of the episodes, trying to keep the story tight, I didn't feel I had a choice, otherwise I would have been padding so as to split Ep 2 and 3 into 2, 3 and 4. So, yeah, not exactly the way I would have wanted it, but I think it might be excusable.| QUOTE | | The description of the violence is well executed. I can picture the way people move as I read your writing: a good sign that it conveys meaning with authority. There is also a nice blend of struggle and flair to the way Vinny fights; important that it shows him as being hard, yet far from invincible. |
Nail on the head. I like James Bond best when he bleeds.| QUOTE | On a language point, this reads far nicer than the Part Three. There are some really first-class, complex-compound sentences in there that are a vast improvement against the ones I commented on last time:
| QUOTE (aragond @ Apr 12 2010, 11:48) | | With whatever remained of his strength, he kicked as the biker's fist sailed toward his head, plunging his foot into a leather-encased groin. And, as the other two arrived, their brother collapsing to the ground doubled-over, his arms lifted him from the road and legs propelled him to speed again... |
Both of these sentences are simultaneously tense and explosive, also keeping events logical for readability. But you have also taken the care to use a period. This, I like. Firstly, you have split up the descriptive element to time-separate the events, which always helps. But have also been brave enough (I know it will have been a conscious decision) to start the second sentence with a conjuncture, after all this being perfectly excusable in grammar outside of primary school, ensuring the narrative keeps its rhythm. |
Again, you are very kind! And if I knew what a complex-compound sentences were, I would take that praise. (Thank you wikipedia.)
If I recall correctly, I DO remember spending aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages on that sub-paragraph, to concisely and precisely describe what was happening without ending up with the monolithic block of black impermeable sentence structure that seemed to happen before I gave up my resistance to splitting it. So, once again, I truly appreciate you noticing my efforts.| QUOTE | I might comment, howver, that your use of him, his, he, etc, can be bit wishy-washy. The sentence above needs careful reading to avoid it seeming as though the Lost member isn't bouncing back off the ground after a kick to the balls. There are other moments when I needed to re-read sentences:
| QUOTE (aragond @ Apr 12 2010, 11:48) | | He relaxed his left arm's strenth and, as expected, his wrestling buddy took the advantage, plunging his knife toward Vinny's left side, slicing at flesh, but also bringing his own arms into the path of the crowbar. |
You properly manage your objects and subjects, transitive verbs and whatever else makes english work, meaning that it is always possible to understand what is happening. But the liberal use of pronouns makes reading some paragraphs more awkward than they should be for the reader. I like your use of 'Crowbar', although you do drop the capitalisation as Vinny leaps on him, as an adopted proper noun, and might recommend you use this technique more often. |
Phew!
You're absolutely right, here, and, again, this sentence took me another veeeeeeeeeeery long time to get right. I find action scenes very difficult to write because there is that tension between trying to keep the pace frenetic without losing your reader. The issue comes when you have another of these complex-compound sentences, or even an entire paragraph in which "he" is doing this, and the other "he" is doing that. I mean, the above sentence has six, count them, six pronouns, names or possessive pronouns. Multiply that by three or four sentences a paragraph and it becomes very easy to lose someone or bore them to tears with "he did this, and he did that" werge.
So, I take your point, and I protest at language's limitations.| QUOTE | | Also: Doc Fanucci ftw. There is something about that name that just drips with coolness. |
 Indeed it does. This post has been edited by aragond on Sunday, Jan 2 2011, 09:28
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| aragond |
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We are the Aragond. We will bury you.
Group: Members
Joined: Aug 26, 2007
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| QUOTE (Maverick24 @ Jan 3 2011, 02:24) | | I have also not been awarded bonuses for multiple of five stories. |
You sure?! It would have been that Aragond fellow doing the ratings for you, and I'm stunned he would have forgotten something so basic?! (Even though he HAS forgotten it for poor ole Tycek his $100 and free weapons bonuses, since it was his tenth story (even though it was chapter nine - read review for more details).)
TYCEK FIXED
Secondly, Staff, Aragond-Staff apologises. Seems he did not grant bonuses for a long while, although some of it was Rucke's fault.  | QUOTE | | How this sort of stuff should carry over to the new system I am still not sure though, so if anyone has thoughts please contribute. |
I want to pose three suggestions:
(i) Cars and weapons should be common to all the gangs you're writing for? Or do people prefer the idea of "starting from scratch" when you sign-up with a new gang? Mmm, I guess y'all do. Alright, perhaps scratch this.
(ii) that gangs start out with at least something. At least, a car that befits them, perhaps even a second that was the old "red-text" car that you get on your, say, fifteenth story or something like that, plus at least a couple of weapons? The alternative is that when a new player joins us, they will have absolutely and literally nothing at their disposal, no car, no gun, nuthin', until they earn dollars on their first story.
Or was this Staff's intention?
(iii) that the cars and weapons presently available for current players continue to be available so they can finish their stories.
(In my case, it would save me $760 under the new cost-structure, which, sure, is a LOT less than the old $3,090, but still, some of those vehicles weren't paid for by Rucke, they were the gang's opening vehicles. Furthermore, I think it has already been applied to Maverick's entry since I don't think he could have bought of his three stories a Sentinel, Pistol, Shotgun, and Sub Machinegun for the Pavanos under the old system. So, Staff are you asking players to submit on their scorecards ALSO the cars and weapons they presently have at their disposal?????)
Now, I have a question to pose y'all:
If a player has been playing with one gang, and decides to move to a new gang and begins by buying a bunch of stuff 'cuz, well, gangs will apparently start with literally nothing, since the player hasn't been playing in that gang at all, does that mean their earnings dollar figure under that gang will go negative? Or will it be that players can ONLY buy for that gang when that individual gang has earned enough?
Finally, some congratulations and thanks to Staff for adding the Ancelotti, Messina and Lupisella families. OSRIC DID YOU SEE THAT, BROTHER! YOUR WAIT IS FINALLY OVER!!! This post has been edited by aragond on Monday, Jan 3 2011, 03:49
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| aragond |
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We are the Aragond. We will bury you.
Group: Members
Joined: Aug 26, 2007
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| QUOTE (Slingaa @ Jan 3 2011, 18:22) | | I think all gangs should start out with one vehicle, one melee weapon and more cash, like $500 or something. |
No, I certainly do not thing starting-out players should get funded. The fun (or so I've been told) is that starting you have to start from scratch. But I do think starting with absolutely nothing is a bridge too far, perhaps.
AnywayDRUGS!! There, I said it. The DEA can raid BUYG now.
Ladies and Jellybeans,
I would like to present to you the proposed restructure of the BUYG IV drug market. I am seeking feedback. You will tell me what you do/don't like about it. I will fix/ditch it. We will all live happily ever after making lots of money from drugs. 
In truth, the one thing I am scrupulously trying to avoid with this new system is abuse. BUYG was never about twisting the drugs to make money, but that's what happened on SA. So, Staff stepped in and threatened to swipe illegal profits from players if they made too much money. That's not fair. It's necessarily at Staff discretion, but that also makes it seemingly arbitrary, which meant everyone stopped using the drugs system. This will not do.
First (proposed) rule: As before, when players buy or sell a quantity of drugs, a story about that transaction must be written. This means, if you buy 10kg of cocaine, you write a story (or more than one, of course) about that purchase. If you then turn that into two 5kg sales, you write two more stories.
The more drugs are divided-up, the higher the profits. It's how it works in reality. Do the numbers make sense? Hell no. Not even slightly: $45 for 4oz but $40 for 2oz?!?! This table is designed for players to make a little on the side for each story they write without creating mega profits that turn BUYG into a drug marketplace. Remember, the guy that turns the pound he bought into eight 2oz baggies might make a $280 profit, but he has to write NINE stories to earn it.
| Drug | Transaction | Quantity | Price |
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| Cocaine | Buy | Pound | $40 | | | | 10 kg | $300 | | | | 50 kg | $1,400 | | | Sell | Ounce (28g) | $40 | | | | 2 oz | $40 | | | | 4 oz | $45 | | | | Pound (1 lb / 16 oz) | $50 | | | | 2 lbs | $65 | | | | 5 lbs | $110 | | | | 1 kg | $65 | | | | 2 kg | $90 | | | | 5 kg | $170 | | | | 10 kg | $320 | | | | 20 kg | $600 | | | | 50 kg | $1430 |
One-and-a-halfth (most obvious) rule: What you write in the story need not have ANYTHING to do with what happens in BUYG dollars administration. You don't have to have bought the drugs, and certainly not a pound for $40. Your gang can find them, steal them, take them off dead bodies after a shoot-out, or acquire them from luminescent alien lifeforms in your stories when, of course, they were bought from your own player funds.
Second (proposed) rule: Players must also write a story about the transformation or production of drugs. As crack cocaine must be manufactured from the raw Cocaine, there must be at least three stories around this: one on the purchase of the cocaine, one on the manufacturing into crack, and the final story for the sale. Crystal Meth, however, may be bought or manufactured. If bought, that requires a story. If manufactured, that requires a story. (Ingredients still need to be bought for the same price as the wholesale price.) Failure to provide the right number of stories will result in negation of the whole process.
| Drug | Transaction | Quantity | Price |
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| Crack cocaine | Turn 1lb Cocaine | into 1600 rocks | - | | | Sell | 1600 rocks | $110 | | | | 500 rocks | $65 | | | | 100 rocks | $40 |
I have spent considerable time simulating the possible combinations of buying and selling and figuring out the possible profits per story, and the best result I could find was $58.50 per story written. But that player would need to write over 50 stories to achieve it. If you can find a better way to cheat this, please let me know, and I'll block that loophole.
Third (proposed) rule: No more than half your posts can be related to the sale of drugs.
If a story violates this rule, Staff will sanction one of the players of the Law Enforcement agencies (as opposed to gangs) to raid designated player's stockpile, taking the same quantity that was last sold. This will be pure loss for the player involved and no compensation will be paid. If that quantity sold is no longer available, the offending player's drugs it shall be taken from any future drugs bought, that is, they'll simply have a negative quantity of drugs, but no sanctioned drug raid need take place until that player's next buy.
Fourth (very-proposed) rule: A bounty of $25 will be paid to the Law Enforcement agency that participates in and writes about this designated raid. If no Law Enforcement gang accepts the bounty, staff will simply say it happened. Sanction of Law Enforcement agencies shall be on a purely rotational basis if more than one agency wishes to participate.
Fifth (proposed) rule: Drug raids may be co-operative and may be non-sanctioned. A law enforcement player and a gang player may write a cooperative story series of no less than one story each that revolves around a drug raid. Both the law enforcement agency and the gang will be awarded an additional $10 bonus for each story plus a $15 bonus upon completion of the series. The gang will also receive the sell-price of the quantity of drugs they lose as though they had sold them.
This could also be used between two gangs, too, with one stealing the drugs off another. Players would need to come to their own arrangement as to how to share the profits, since the stolen-from player will need some compensation and the thief will profit from selling them. A $10 / story plus $15 completion bonus will also be granted to both players
Sixth (proposed) rule: If a gang has become subject to a Staff-sanctioned drug raid, they may engage with a law enforcement agency to help write a cooperative story series of no less than one story each about the raid. The law enforcement agency will receive the $10 per story plus $15 completion bonus as usual. The gang will receive no bonuses, but they will have the COST PRICE of the drugs they lost restored.
It's all simple really: if a player has posted 6 stories and three of them are about the selling of the 10 kg of cocaine they bought, and their seventh story is about the selling of another kilo of the cocaine, they have now broken the 50% rule. Staff will announce it as part of the player's rating.
In the next ratings, a law enforcement agency will be given the task of writing a story about raiding the player and finding that kilo of cocaine. The player will lose a kilo of cocaine from their present stocks, and they will not be compensated. The agency will receive their normal rating plus a $20 bonus.
Should that player contact a law enforcement agency and arrange a story series and have both posted the beginning of that series before the next ratings, Staff will hold off. Lets say the series lasted for two stories each. When completed, law enforcement will be paid $10 each for the two stories, plus a $15 bonus, while the gang, which had 1kg of their 10kg confiscated, will have 1/10 x $300 = $30 returned to them -- the cost they paid for the cocaine.
But, Aragond, that seems overly complicated, doesn't it? Yeah, I knew you were going to say that, so I have an alternative:
(Alternative) Third (proposed) rule: No more than half your posts can be related to the sale of drugs. If a story violates this rule, the story will NOT BE RATED and the drug transaction will be deemed to have not taken place.
(Alternative) Fifth (proposed) rule: Precisely as above, 'cuz it's still a cool idea.
My intention is that drugs be used to DRIVE the writing of stories, not as a means to make oodles of money to roll around in. Secondly, I propose the cooperative story bonuses as a means of, say it with me now, DRIVING the writing of stories. If players feel the introduction of a marketplace for drugs, making money off them, is not going to achieve this with the right balance, then we can just as easily scrap the whole idea. This post has been edited by aragond on Monday, Jan 3 2011, 10:58
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| Maverick24 |
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Crackhead
Group: Members
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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| QUOTE (aragond @ Jan 3 2011, 10:51) | | blah blah... tl:dr |
Awesome job, Aragond. I wholly support the first, and more complex, series of rules. The only thing I am unsure of is the idea of 'drugs production'. It seems messy and wholly confusing, however I can see a place for it in the world of GTA. Maybe I just don't know as much as you do about Cocaine distribution . As for the Law Enforcement idea. I think it's fantastic but have a suspicion that it may not work properly unless this place gets a lot more active. I, for one, will definitely be picking up a role in the Feds though. So watch this space. Tyla, thanks for the recognition in the community awards post! Tycek, please continue using the current system. Everything going on regarding the new system is purely at a proposal stage and it would be wrong to act on it otherwise. I guarantee that we will do everything reasonable to make the transition fair and balanced so please do not worry about losing out. Anyway, remember that we all (as in us active writers) stand to lose something we've worked for. Slingaa| QUOTE (Slingaa @ Jan 3 2011, 08:22) | | Could I move to the Messina Family at the Pillows Club, please? |
Same goes here as for Tycek. When the new system is in place, feel free. Nothing to stop you writing stories though and saving them for later! TheLostBiker| QUOTE (TheLostBiker @ Jan 2 2011, 16:35) | | Maverick. Help me. Can someone rate the story, and how do i switchover to the lost for the new BUYG? I don't want Triads, I want The Lost! |
Under the current rules you can only swap after having posted five stories. Although, in an effort to preserve peoples' interest Staff could ignore your previous story and consider your story for The Lost only. Your choice. As for ratings, they are done only when a sufficient number of stories have been posted as to warrant Staff's attention for such a task. This isn't to be taken as laziness or lack of care, but we're volunteers and I would ask you to bear that in mind. Besides, we're working pretty flat-out on the revamp at-the-mo. I will try and ensure that all outstanding (as in unrated, not awesome) stories are rated by the time of the switch-over.aragond| QUOTE (aragond @ Jan 3 2011, 03:37) | | QUOTE (Maverick24 @ Jan 3 2011, 02:24) | | I have also not been awarded bonuses for multiple of five stories. |
You sure?! It would have been that Aragond fellow doing the ratings for you, and I'm stunned he would have forgotten something so basic?! (Even though he HAS forgotten it for poor ole Tycek his $100 and free weapons bonuses, since it was his tenth story (even though it was chapter nine - read review for more details).) |
You know... I'm not sure! Unfortunately I can't roll back the score for the Irish Mob to check either, so maybe this highlights another problem with the current system. +1 to the new! I had not counted the bonuses when summing my scores for the new system, so have added them to that. Regarding the issue of weapons/vehicles and gangs: I was thinking of something alike to your option 2. We just need to draw up a quick list of "starter" vehicles for the gangs. This also raises a question of: what about The Law? IMO they should start with everything, but we set a higher bar for ratings... Quite ambiguous, I know, but it adds some variety and colour to the proceedings. I was thinking, regarding the money issue, that a player be allowed to pool their entire earnings to spend where they like. If you've earned $10,000 dollars in the Lost MC, then you can enjoy writing about being Don in the Gambettis! This also might encourage people to support The Law more actively, bringing in dealers and such. This post has been edited by Maverick24 on Tuesday, Jan 4 2011, 01:19
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| Slingaa |
 Posted: Thursday, Jan 6 2011, 07:55
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Unbowed, unbent, unbroken.
Group: Members
Joined: Sep 19, 2009
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| QUOTE (Maverick24 @ Jan 5 2011, 23:01) | | QUOTE (Slingaa @ Jan 5 2011, 17:25) | | If the prices of vehicles and weapons have decreased, I think that the story bonuses should be changed too. Maybe we could add a few different bonuses too? |
Please expand on this to explain what you mean.
Prices have been changed in such a way as to make things more affordable, and have been adjusted with the current rating system in mind. If you are proposing that we change story bonuses proportionally then we would have gained nothing for a whole lot of work. |
Oh, I suppose so, never mind then. Is The Law just open to staff, or any writer and can we be in two gangs at once? |
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| aragond |
Posted: Thursday, Jan 6 2011, 10:06
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We are the Aragond. We will bury you.
Group: Members
Joined: Aug 26, 2007
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| QUOTE (Slingaa @ Jan 6 2011, 17:55) | | Is The Law just open to staff, or any writer and can we be in two gangs at once? |
Assuming I understand it correctly, you would be able to run as many gangs at once as you see fit.
But, that said, wouldn't it be more fun to have other people be the law coming down on your gang, just as you could be the law coming down on theirs? |
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Also forgot to add my $100 story bonus for my fifth story, which makes $276. 
